The 2019 General Election
- Thread starter brogdale
- Start date
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Another one 
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Is it why then is the Labour council in Birmingham attacking strikers? Why are Labour councils cutting funding? The current Labour party is no more what you want it to be than what DT wants it to be.
And it's the above that is precisely the folly and danger of Labourism.
mauvais
on reddit or something
I know this is your hobby horse and to get your money's worth it must be ridden at any opportunity, and I'm not here to stop that, but you're arguing some point that hasn't been made. I haven't said that the LP is good or bad, or what I want it to be, or that it does or doesn't do what you describe. Simply that it is firmly what it is today - broadly, the set of things DT wrongly describes as 'far left'. It's not immutable and it's not absolute but neither of those things matter.
Despite what he claims, he doesn't like it and he doesn't want it to win because what he wants it to be is something else entirely, maybe something that it used to be or maybe not. It can only be resolved by him either changing his shit politics or by admitting that his support lies elsewhere.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
You still haven't answered the question if the LP is firmly what you claim it is then why is it strike breaking? Why is it attacking workers? Your picture of the LP is no more accurate than DTs. And lets be honest you do want the type of LP that Corbyn represents don't you? You've argued for such.
DT is irrelevant but there is a huge body of thought in the LP that feels it has 'moved too far left', that exists and it as much part of the LP as Momentum. Many of these people have been members for years or decades. Whatever one might think of their politics anyone getting involved in the LP needs to recognise they exist that they need to be contended with.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Yeh Blair did this electoral thing and he did for lots of people in Afghanistan, Iraq and other countries.
What's the other strand?
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
This really sums up your politics. It’s culled from old tabloid headlines from Thatcherite newspaper bosses. Its entirety is “Micheal Foot’s duffel coat disgrace”, and Thatcherite privatisation propaganda.
I’m old enough to remember nationalised utilities, rail, Mail. And I remember who privatised them. Your definition of “sensible socialism” seems to mean electing a Labour Party which accepts Thatcherite doctrine - neoliberalism - as “common sense”. This was tried. It was called New Labour. It entailed further attacks on the working class. I see no point in electing a non Tory government in name only. And yet that for you is “sensible socialism”.
You, sir, are a buffoon.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Tbh that's near universal for labour isn't it, even the labour left and its political leaders are no thereat to capitalism, capitalism in a particular form fair enough but the aim is a more regulated form
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
You’ve conflated the position of Corbyn and other left social democrats as ‘what the party is’. That’s a fundamental misreading of how Labour works.
You can broadly divide the Party into the following sections: The leadership, the PLP, the CLPs, the unions, factional groups, Local Government and other affiliates. I’ve probably missed a few. These groups are not in step politically. They haven’t been historically either. At any one time certain sections will be ascendant, others on decline and others battling it out.
I don’t think this is a controversial point and not sure why you’ve decided to try to make it one.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Yes. Spot on. Even for the Labour left the aim is the management of the system into a different direction rather than its replacement.
Nationalisation is a classic case in point. Firstly, a large segment of the Party only ever saw it as a necessary expedient during war to manage supply and after to manage reconstruction. It wasn’t, for them, politically important and they wanted a return to the private sector ASAP.
Even amongst those who believes in nationalisation politically they stopped short of worker control or even involvement in the management of the operation. If you look at, for example, British Steel. There wasn’t a great deal of difference in the management board in periods of national and private ownership
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Probably badly put, what I meant by managing capitalism was the (traditional) labour right and left-liberal strands of the party.
While there is clearly an overlap (especially in deeds) I'd argue the soft left and hard left are different strands, who want (in theory anyway) to go a little further than just "managing" capitalism. And TBF there has always been a reformist socialist strand in the LP, even if it was small.
krink
I'll do it this afternoon
I must have watched a different debate last night cos both news reporters on two stations on the radio this morning said boris johnson won. The bias against Labour in the media is unbelievable, its almost as bad as it was during the miners strike. I'm even thinking I might vote for him to spite the fuckers. Its blatant.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
I found the entire hour turgid.I don't think either 'won' I can't imagine anyone changed their mind having watched it. The format didn't help, it was piss poor. That definitely harmed Corbyn who couldn't develop points and it bailed Johnson out when he started wobbling.
sunnysidedown
caput mortuum
The circus loves the clown
elbows
Well-Known Member
I dont think rudely talking all over the host all the bloody time was a good look for Johnson either. Format made his repeated dragging of everything back to Brexit tired and awkward too.
Not that I'm trying to make too much of these things, they arent big difference makers.
My mum has joined Labour but long-term dodgy media messages still seem to affect her expectations regarding Corbyn in these situations - every time he is in a debate like this she expresses surprise afterwards that he did OK. Even though his strengths and weaknesses with this stuff are fairly constant and unchanging over these leadership years.
mauvais
on reddit or something
I know what the component parts of the party are, and I know what the nature and history of it is. I don't know why you're trying to explain it to me.
When someone bangs on about everything that they don't like, only to claim, "I do like Labour and want them to form the new government", WTF are we to take that to mean? I'm pretty sure it doesn't have anything to do with local government. Maybe it really means, 'I liked the Tony Blair Labour Party and I wish it was that again', but that would be fucking stupid, because it's no longer a thing and nor can it be. Maybe it means, 'I like whatever the party might be without Jeremy Corbyn', but that's not a thing either, that's the absence of a thing - probably any electoral popularity for the last couple of iterations, FWIW - and barely even that.
No matter what diagrams you come up with to detail the cogs and wires of how the machine works, that's not the machine, the machine is the assembled thing, either as it exists right now or in the set of possible permutations through which it might actually successfully operate in today's reality. And since DT doesn't like the former and doesn't demonstrate any understanding of the latter, it's a load of bollocks, isn't it?
And we've all wasted much more time on this than they deserve.
quite. let's get back to the chino chat.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
[QUOTE="mauvais, post: 16293946, member: 17847"No matter what diagrams you come up with to detail the cogs and wires of how the machine works, that's not the machine, the machine is the assembled thing, either as it exists right now or in the set of possible permutations through which it might actually successfully operate in today's reality. And since DT doesn't like the former and doesn't demonstrate any understanding of the latter, it's a load of bollocks, isn't it? And we've all wasted much more time on this than they deserve.[/QUOTE]
Unless you understand how each cog and wire operates and the function it performs then you can't understand the machine except on the most superficial level.
Anyway, can see how this might turn into a derail, so let's move on. Even though the thread is becoming as boring as the GE itself.
Unless you understand how each cog and wire operates and the function it performs then you can't understand the machine except on the most superficial level.
Anyway, can see how this might turn into a derail, so let's move on. Even though the thread is becoming as boring as the GE itself.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
By sensible socialism do you mean 'not socialism'?
If you had a clue about anything you would know that nationalisation is popular.
Honestly you're just stuck in a loop from the mid 90's don't you bore yourself to tears at this point?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
She's no Lady Macbeth
there is nothing socialist apart from the inclusion of socialism in its name about the 'sensible socialism' you suggest
don't you remember the dumping of clause four and the inviting of margaret thatcher to downing street by tony blair - the disappearance of everything socialist from the labour party's politics save the occasional use of the word 'socialist'?
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
Did anyone watch the interviews with the leaders of the smaller parties?
Jo Swinson made it very clear, if there's a hung parliament, that the LibDems will not put Johnson or Corbyn into No.10.
So, if it's a hung parliament, and LibDems MPs are required to back one or other, what are they going to do?
Stick their fingers in their ears and make the lala sound?
Jo Swinson made it very clear, if there's a hung parliament, that the LibDems will not put Johnson or Corbyn into No.10.
So, if it's a hung parliament, and LibDems MPs are required to back one or other, what are they going to do?
Stick their fingers in their ears and make the lala sound?
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
Technically they're not required to are they? They can refuse to go with either and let them do whatever thy decide.
In reality though they'd go with whoever offers her personally the best position in the cabinet.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
You really haven't got a clue have you? I'm highly critical of Corbyn and the Labouur left's strategy, not just on brexit but you pick the very things to criticise that give Labour a chance of minimising the tory majority. But you'd prefer to keep public utilities in private hands? So, what is this sensible socialism that Labour should be pushing? Could you give us some details where they are going wrong?
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Actually, I don't know why I bothered responding. This covers it perfectly.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
The sad demise of Gap Khakis
N_igma
Epistemic nuisance
They’ll enter a coalition with the Tories if they get a second crack at that AV Referendum.
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