The 2019 General Election

[Don Troooomp]

In 1964 Labour won an election with a manifesto which included "integrating public schools into the state system".

How many years did they hold power - 2?

 

[Proper Tidy]

Sorry PT. I'll give him till I've finished my morning cup of tea and if nothing improves I'll press the button too.

I bite sometimes too, when I said can somebody fuck him off what I meant was can editor ban him

 

[Don Troooomp]

I bite sometimes too, when I said can somebody fuck him off what I meant was can editor ban him

Freedom of speech and open expression is fine until you don't like something?
You can't answer so you just want rid rather than examine the problems that are keeping Labour of of power.

 

[Pickman's model]

.

 

[Pickman's model]

I bite sometimes too, when I said can somebody fuck him off what I meant was can editor ban him

maybe auld fridgey might like in on the action

 

[Don Troooomp]

There isn't.

I think there is

Let's run through a few points.

NHS - Good stuff, but must be tempered with efficiency. That doesn't mean Tory style business managers, it means stopping waste - all waste

Hold a second referendum on Brexit - Highly unpopular, as we found out

Minimum wage - Nice but it's a vote grabber the press killed so ended up as a vote loser. It just copied a tory vote winner policy, and Labour looked stupid

National care - Too expensive and already rejected as such in the past. That was always going to get hammered and, just to really fuck it up, most people had no clue what the fuck it was so it meant nothing

Zero carbon - Good news but a slow, careful approach is needed with line spun about being business friendly and saving money, not just climate change. The climate crisis has to be sorted out, but most people just don't see it so make it cheap to run eco-friendly cars and so on. People understand low bills a lot better than they do carbon emmitions.

Nationalisation - Expensive idiocy - dump that moronic idea forever.

Universal credit - Yes, it's a bit crap but you have to work out how to replace it before you can say you'll replace it. That was a killer the tories loved.

Conference's private schools stuff was always going to mean attacks on the whole party, more so when you look at how many Labour parliamentarians wither went to private schools or send their kids there. Yes, improve state schools, but attacking private education is a guaranteed fuck up policy.

Free buses - Not that free as tax pays for them, so always an invitation for attacks there was no defence against.

EU nationals right to remain - Blanket policies like that are stupid because they include all the ones the press love to attack Labour with. There goes a policy because 'Polish rapists' will get cited as examples. The remain policy is fine, but there had to be exceptions for criminals and other undesirables in order to avoid obvious tory attacks.

Council home - Good, but make sure they match the people the things are intended for. If we're talking pensioners, easy access and small to keep bills down work better than a 3 bed with an upstairs.

At the end of the day,the whole thing was a silly bit of toilet paper that had too little thought, no idea what was actually needed, and went against the stated aims of the electorate. It was a left wing political document designed for a minority left wing with no fucking clue their ideals are seriously unpopular.

 

[chilango]

How many years did they hold power - 2?

You think that's because of that (unimplemented) policy?

*shakes head*

 

[chilango]

I think there is

Not a single one of them is "far left" by any useful definition.

 

[chilango]

Anyway you've got about two mouthfuls to say something more serious and worth engaging with (hint: I don't have to agree with it but it has to have least a passing acquaintance with reality) before I hit the button....

 

[Part-timah]

A friend comments:

I wonder why the difference. Is it purely the accumulation of capital that turns older voters and/or the consumption of traditional media.

What will that look like in 5 years?

 

[Pickman's model]

I wonder why the difference. Is it purely the accumulation of capital that turns older voters and/or the consumption of traditional media.

What will that look like in 5 years?

or is it that more people who have always voted tory are alive about the age of 65

 

[Pickman's model]

/

 

[Brainaddict]

Just thought of a minor positive of the demise of Corbyn/McDonnell: Seamus Milne will no longer be in charge of the press office. I sometimes wonder how much better they might have done with someone with an ounce of media nous in charge. The anti-semitism could have been dealt with so much better (I mean, getting rid of anti-semites faster too, but there was also the PR element). But I realised they were still being shit when they released that broadband policy in the election campaign. "I know, since one of the attack lines on us is that we just offer to give away free stuff, and since this is successful and people already have trouble believing we can keep our promises, why don't we announce a policy of more free stuff that literally no-one even asked for!" The media obviously monstered Corbyn, but there were also so many unforced errors.

 

[Pickman's model]

No - Because you refuse to answer because you can't without admitting the far left are unpopular and crap at their jobs.
If you can prove me wrong - Do so by posting the dates, PM, how many years they were in power, and their achievements.
Don't bother if they didn't manage 10 years in government, or left the country in a mess with things like very high inflation and debts to the IMF.

no, i did answer your question, namely

I ask but never get an answer Anyone have any idea why the left refuse to answer?

 

[chilango]

Ok tea finished. Must crack on with my day.

 

[bimble]

I wonder why the difference. Is it purely the accumulation of capital that turns older voters and/or the consumption of traditional media.

What will that look like in 5 years?

That's what i want to know too.
graphic probably been posted already but its so stark when seen like this:



eta CORRECTION - thats not actually form this election soz its from sept 2018.

 

[JimW]

I'll give you a clue, the largest ever loan from the IMF was in 1976.

Healy's on record as saying they never actually needed that, he was conned by the civil service for some odd reason.

 

[Part-timah]

or is it that more people who have always voted tory are alive about the age of 65

The rich living longer no doubt is a depressing factor.

 

[Idris2002]

Healy's on record as saying they never actually needed that, he was conned by the civil service for some odd reason.

I mentioned that case to an old boss of mine, who had a family connection to the Labour cabinet of that era. And he got really huffy with me - "all that money was paid back inside six months". Which in fairness is a detail that usually gets left out.

 

[two sheds]

But I realised they were still being shit when they released that broadband policy in the election campaign. "I know, since one of the attack lines on us is that we just offer to give away free stuff, and since this is successful and people already have trouble believing we can keep our promises, why don't we announce a policy of more free stuff that literally no-one even asked for!" The media obviously monstered Corbyn, but there were also so many unforced errors.

Yes, it would have been a good policy but just looked like another uncosted giveaway. I groaned early on when Corbyn said he was offering four extra days holiday a year, it just looked like a bribe.

I wanted to see costings all the way through. How much from stopping offshore tax evasion for example? How much from taxing the millionaires and billionaires? Similarly they could have put more stress on the profits that the privatized industries were making - I saw a report somewhere that renationalizing would pay for itself within 6 or 7 years: eliminating all the wasteful duplicated advertising and legal fees that are involved with multiple suppliers for example.

Even if most of the money was coming from quantitative easing, then stress that it had been done before but instead of all the money going to the banks this time it would have gone for investment in infrastructure.

Of course, he might have been giving these figures every time he spoke but they just might not have been reported - hard to tell with the press we've got.

 

[Brainaddict]

Yes, it would have been a good policy but just looked like another uncosted giveaway. I groaned early on when Corbyn said he was offering four extra days holiday a year, it just looked like a bribe.

I wanted to see costings all the way through. How much from stopping offshore tax evasion for example? How much from taxing the millionaires and billionaires? Similarly they could have put more stress on the profits that the privatized industries were making - I saw a report somewhere that renationalizing would pay for itself within 6 or 7 years: eliminating all the wasteful duplicated advertising and legal fees that are involved with multiple suppliers for example.

Even if most of the money was coming from quantitative easing, then stress that it had been done before but instead of all the money going to the banks this time it would have gone for investment in infrastructure.

Of course, he might have been giving these figures every time he spoke but they just might not have been reported - hard to tell with the press we've got.

There was no need to put so much in the manifesto anyway. It just became more for them to be targetted for. Manifesto could have looked like:

Better public services with a focus on the NHS
Green new deal for jobs (particularly in the north)
End food banks by ending Universal Credit

All a bit academic with their Brexit position, but it was distressing to see them spending days defending stuff like free broadband and planting billions of trees. It all meant they weren't talking about the important stuff. An intern fresh out of a media/comms degree could have told them they were fucking up the messaging.

 

[Dogsauce]

I saw someone on Twatter saying that Labour won the vote among working age population, pensioners won it for the Tories. Does this mean the ‘working class’ did back Labour after all?

 

[marty21]

There was no need to put so much in the manifesto anyway. It just became more for them to be targetted for. Manifesto could have looked like:

Better public services with a focus on the NHS
Green new deal for jobs (particularly in the north)
End food banks by ending Universal Credit

All a bit academic with their Brexit position, but it was distressing to see them spending days defending stuff like free broadband and planting billions of trees. It all meant they weren't talking about the important stuff. An intern fresh out of a media/comms degree could have told them they were fucking up the messaging.

Whereas the Tories were on point on messaging - 'Get Brexit Done' was practically their only message - repeated again and again - clearly that worked.

 

[Pickman's model]

I saw someone on Twatter saying that Labour won the vote among working age population, pensioners won it for the Tories. Does this mean the ‘working class’ did back Labour after all?

i am sure the twittereriat won't let anything like that get in their way of slagging off northern working class people as responsible for the Great Calamity

 

[kabbes]

Try answering the questions

Which years have far left Labour governments run for two terms?
Which Labour governments have left power with the country in a better state than when they took office, thus left the electorate better off?

You know that the U.K. isn’t the only country that elects governments, right? And plenty of those countries have used nationalised industries for decades. Governments supporting these policies have been repeatedly returned. So is your contention that there is a special reason why mildly socialist policies like the ones in the Labour manifesto are unworkable specifically in the U.K.?

 

[kabbes]

I think the problem is that Don Troooomp actually believes in Conservative ideology but he doesn’t want to admit it to himself. He really is a natural Tory voter. If that’s what he believes in, he’d be better off sticking with that rather than trying to turn the Labour Party into the Tory party. He could and should just join the Tory party — his more natural home — and concentrate on steering that party towards its One Nation Conservative roots rather than its Free Market Thatcherism later incarnation.

 

[Idris2002]

Whereas the Tories were on point on messaging - 'Get Brexit Done' was practically their only message - repeated again and again - clearly that worked.

Maybe it could have been countered with something like "Real Brexit, Real Choice"? Or simply "Don't trust Johnson"?

 

[Brainaddict]

Whereas the Tories were on point on messaging - 'Get Brexit Done' was practically their only message - repeated again and again - clearly that worked.

Yeah, it did. I don't want to obsess about media strategy as it is only a small part of the picture (compared to working out what would actually make people feel more powerful), but Milne has consistently been an incompetent muppet and I'm glad to be seeing the back of him. Quite a failure by Corbyn to appoint a friend rather than someone actually competent.

 

[marty21]

I was speaking to a work mate this morning - he voted Labour (In Brent) liked Corbyn, wanted Labour to win, but wasn't surprised they didn't. He said Labour had too many policies He said he was only interested in having a home, earning a living, and having a NHS, he wasn't interested in having free broadband or any of the other things they had in the manifesto. I think he had a point - the simple Tory message was easy to understand - Labour overthought - had too many strategists/media experts and they got found out.

 

[kebabking]

Maybe it could have been countered with something like "Real Brexit, Real Choice"? Or simply "Don't trust Johnson"?

Deck chairs and Titanic.

Labour leave, and labour respect-the-result voters were massively offended when Labour stopped talking about respecting the result and started moving towards a second ref - that's when trust went down the shitter. When they started saying that they wouldn't even vote for a leave deal that they had negotiated the game was completely dead in the water.

It was - or appeared to be, which in politics is the same thing - a London-centric, remainer stitch-up where labour were now saying they would negotiate a different deal, then come back and then vote against it in another referendum. No choice, and no brexit was what the electorate heard, and no slogan was going to cut through that visceral betrayal of trust.

They weren't keen on Corbyn to start with, but that made them lose their shit...