Spanish Political News

[Stanley Edwards]

Now I come to think about it, I would be very interested to know what percentage of people living in Barcelona actually have the right to vote. My guess would be below 50%.

 

[Pickman's model]

Now I come to think about it, I would be very interested to know what percentage of people living in Barcelona actually have the right to vote. My guess would be below 50%.

Well you can exclude everyone below the voting age for a start, lunatics, etc

 

[Pickman's model]

I think it is 'totally meaningless'. The whole thing was such a mess. We have no idea where the final stats came from, or how they were collated and counted.

I am not ignoring the police actions. Far from it, I am including those actions in a reasonable conclusion that it is all meaningless. There is not point to be pushed.

If there was any meaningful outcome, then it brought the issue to the World media. There is no easy resolution. You have to go with the majority outcome, but then, you have to be able to represent the minority fairly also.

My experience generally of Catalunya is that the pro Independence movement comes largely from a very conservative power base amongst the old money establishment, and landowners in rural areas. The fashionable vote may well be alive and well in younger generations of Barcelona and more fashionable cities, but they aren't going to put pen to paper when the real vote happens, because few of them actually have a right to vote in a legal election.

There are no verifiable statistics available from the illegal referendum. They are therefore 'totally meaningless'.

Yeh. Well it will all end in totally meaningless tears then

 

[Pickman's model]

Another post from Stan that I totally agree with.

Run a self-diagnostic, tim, as your moral compass seems likely askew if this continues

 

[tim]

Well you can exclude everyone below the voting age for a start, lunatics, etc

I don't know Spain well, but my experience in Italy was that as everyone was legally obliged to have a registered address, and reregistering was complex and time consuming, many people remained registered in their home commune even if they had moved to a larger city. My assumption is that Spain might be similar as bureaucratic controls of the population introduced by the dictatorship may still be in force but neither respected or enforced with the result that inertia discourages people from frequently reregistering their address

It may mot be as easy to register to vote from a new address as it is in the UK.

 

[Wilf]

I think it is 'totally meaningless'. The whole thing was such a mess. We have no idea where the final stats came from, or how they were collated and counted.

I am not ignoring the police actions. Far from it, I am including those actions in a reasonable conclusion that it is all meaningless. There is not point to be pushed.

If there was any meaningful outcome, then it brought the issue to the World media. There is no easy resolution. You have to go with the majority outcome, but then, you have to be able to represent the minority fairly also.

My experience generally of Catalunya is that the pro Independence movement comes largely from a very conservative power base amongst the old money establishment, and landowners in rural areas. The fashionable vote may well be alive and well in younger generations of Barcelona and more fashionable cities, but they aren't going to put pen to paper when the real vote happens, because few of them actually have a right to vote in a legal election.

There are no verifiable statistics available from the illegal referendum. They are therefore 'totally meaningless'.

Again, I think you are overstating this. There was opportunism from Puidgemont in calling the referendum and, as I've said, there probably isn't a natural indie majority. But it was Madrid that stopped it happening under anything like normal checks and balances. And whilst there might have been anomalies in terms of what was accepted as a valid vote, all that sort of stuff, it would be daft to suggest anything other than that Indie got a clear majority of the votes cast. Yes, on a less than 50% turnout, in a contested election... all that, but still a clear majority of votes cast.

 

[planetgeli]

I think it has been explained quite clearly.

According to the Spanish constitution Spain is "an indissoluble union", so any attempt by a region to seccede violates the constitution. Consequently, central government believes it has the right to take control of the region

That may well be legally waterproof but it isn’t addressing a situation that has been festering for years, and it isn’t the only stance the Court has ever taken. It’s not diplomacy is it. There have been decisions from Spain’s Constitutional Court, for example in 2014, that there is a right to decide. Rajoy could have gone with this (I know he hasn’t at any point) and every opinion poll at the time suggested the secessionists would fail. Instead, his intransigence and the rush to nationalism from the Catalan leaders has led us up this shit street.

 

[Pickman's model]

That may well be legally waterproof but it isn’t addressing a situation that has been festering for years, and it isn’t the only stance the Court has ever taken. It’s not diplomacy is it. There have been decisions from Spain’s Constitutional Court, for example in 2014, that there is a right to decide. Rajoy could have gone with this (I know he hasn’t at any point) and every opinion poll at the time suggested the secessionists would fail. Instead, his intransigence and the rush to nationalism from the Catalan leaders has led us up this shit street.

Yeh all this would have likely gone away by now if he'd just said we view this as just an opinion poll and left it at that, not pissed about and upped the ante and needlessly inflamed the situation

 

[tim]

Run a self-diagnostic, tim, as your moral compass seems likely askew if this continues

Four hours at the bookfair yesterday may have sent me of course. Particularly after someone with a picture of Abdullah Ocalan pasted over their heart tried fairly successfully to convince me that there really was no Ocalan personality cult in the liberated areas of Kurdish Syria.

I was one of the stalwarts who stayed in the Rojava meeting through the fire alarm, despite the thought crossing my mind that the venue might have been firebombed

 

[Pickman's model]

.

 

[tim]

That may well be legally waterproof but it isn’t addressing a situation that has been festering for years, and it isn’t the only stance the Court has ever taken. It’s not diplomacy is it. There have been decisions from Spain’s Constitutional Court, for example in 2014, that there is a right to decide. Rajoy could have gone with this (I know he hasn’t at any point) and every opinion poll at the time suggested the secessionists would fail. Instead, his intransigence and the rush to nationalism from the Catalan leaders has led us up this shit street.

He's leader of the PP. He won't stay leader by capitulating even if he knows the referendum would probably be lost by the seccesionists

 

[Favelado]

I don't know Spain well, but my experience in Italy was that as everyone was legally obliged to have a registered address, and reregistering was complex and time consuming, many people remained registered in their home commune even if they had moved to a larger city. My assumption is that Spain might be similar as bureaucratic controls of the population introduced by the dictatorship may still be in force but neither respected or enforced with the result that inertia discourages people from frequently reregistering their address

It may mot be as easy to register to vote from a new address as it is in the UK.

It's a trip to the district council. It takes an hour in total.

 

[chilango]

I don't know Spain well, but my experience in Italy was that as everyone was legally obliged to have a registered address, and reregistering was complex and time consuming, many people remained registered in their home commune even if they had moved to a larger city. My assumption is that Spain might be similar as bureaucratic controls of the population introduced by the dictatorship may still be in force but neither respected or enforced with the result that inertia discourages people from frequently reregistering their address

It may mot be as easy to register to vote from a new address as it is in the UK.

I tried to register to vote in Italy. I was eligible but the process defeated me.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Well, we do know because polling has been released today which is more or less consistent with previous polling, a majority of Catalans want more autonomy but not outright independence.

A majority is also in favour of having new elections to the Catalan parliament, which is the position of the Spanish government and is rejected by the Catalan Nationalists.

La mayoría de catalanes es favorable a que se convoquen elecciones


With this in mind, supporting increased autonomy is reasonable as is supporting a referendum. What would be absolutely bizarre would be supporting the declaration of independence without a vote, something that would be done against the will of the majority of people who live in Catalonia.

El Pais is verging on falangist in its editorials nowadays. It is more right wing than the daily mail and recently sacked a british journalist, John Carlin, for criticizing the violence of the spanish state on october the 1st El Pais is not a trustworthy source. Spanish unionist media is stuck in a rut of absolute lying and propaganda.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Oh well, perhaps the PP will get its way and Catalonia will elect a government of nice house trained “socialists” to act as their proxy.
Or maybe not.
A majority opposed the rebels of 1916, another alliance of romantic nationalists and republican socialists on an ill advised venture, but their martyrdom set in motion events which led to the end of British rule.
We shall see what develops.

Visca la republica!

 

[Pickman's model]

El Pais is verging on falangist in its editorials nowadays. It is more right wing than the daily mail and recently sacked a british journalist, John Carlin, for criticizing the violence of the spanish state on october the 1st El Pais is not a trustworthy source. Spanish unionist media is stuck in a rut of absolute lying and propaganda.

They've gotta get out of it - out of it - out of it

 

[Pickman's model]

El Pais is verging on falangist in its editorials nowadays. It is more right wing than the daily mail and recently sacked a british journalist, John Carlin, for criticizing the violence of the spanish state on october the 1st El Pais is not a trustworthy source. Spanish unionist media is stuck in a rut of absolute lying and propaganda.

Less hysterical comment on the sacking can be found at https://www.cjr.org/business_of_news/catalonia-independence-el-pais-spain.php

 

[Anudder Oik]

Oh, and a question for you and Anudder Oik : do you think independence should go ahead without the majority support of the catalan people?

Where do you get this majority from? Is it the myth of the silent majority? Who has the majority in the catalan parliament? You can't just go, oh, everyone who didn't vote in the referendum belongs to the anti independence camp. Several hundred thousand votes were confiscated and there is always a large percentage of abstention at every election. You cannot do the maths of the referendum by equating a 100% turnout of the electorate, it just isn't realistic.

Now, the spanish PP mafia government has set in motion an "illegal" all out assault on catalan autonomy and intends to purge all catalan institutions, the same as it did in 1714 with the decree of the Nueva Planta. It's call for elections in december is a farce, they will ban the participation of independentista parties.

They are alr4eady holding political prisoners on trumped up charges of sedition when the videos show these prisoners telling protestors to go home. The PP is going after 700 independetista mayors, loads of politicians and will also call Trapero (former head of Mossos) to a hearing in Madrid soon, from which he will not return.

Purists on thsi thread have no fucking clue of the seriousness of all this and keep going on about catalan bourgoise nationalism when what we have here is a fucking mass movement of all classes fighting for its rights. It is the only large scale progressive struggle for justice in europe.

 

[Pickman's model]

Where do you get this majority from? Is it the myth of the silent majority? Who has the majority in the catalan parliament? You can't just go, oh, everyone who didn't vote in the referendum belongs to the anti independence camp. Several hundred thousand votes were confiscated and there is always a large percentage of abstention at every election. You cannot do the maths of the referendum by equating a 100% turnout of the electorate, it just isn't realistic.

Now, the spanish PP mafia government has set in motion an "illegal" all out assault on catalan autonomy and intends to purge all catalan institutions, the same as it did in 1714 with the decree of the Nueva Planta. It's call for elections in december is a farce, they will ban the participation of independentista parties.

They are alr4eady holding political prisoners on trumped up charges of sedition when the videos show these prisoners telling protestors to go home. The PP is going after 700 independetista mayors, loads of politicians and will also call Trapero (former head of Mossos) to a hearing in Madrid soon, from which he will not return.

Purists on thsi thread have no fucking clue of the seriousness of all this and keep going on about catalan bourgoise nationalism when what we have here is a fucking mass movement of all classes fighting for its rights. It is the only large scale progressive struggle for justice in europe.

Yeh. When you have a mass movement of all classes the working class never wins out.

 

[Anudder Oik]

On both sides you've got a rancid right

False, the catalan side is a mass cross class movement of the people struggling for self detemination against a dominant fascistic nationalism, there is nothing rancid about it. You are lying. Link to something rancid if you can.

If you half close your eyes even the flags and the marches look alike.

False, This is utter blindness to what is really going on in Spain. The two flags do not represent the same thing. The Catalan marches are peaceful and respectful with songs about liberty from Spanish domination, the unionists are frothing at the mouth, bigotted, screaming, sieg heiling and praising the violence of the police when they are not hospitalizing people in impune attacks, like this week in Barcelona. They are full of openly fascist organizations.

The two sides couldn't be more different.

If you substitute Visca for Viva the slogans are much the same.

False "Viva la guardia Civil" is not the same as "Visca la Libertat!"

 

[Pickman's model]

False, the catalan side is a mass cross class movement of the people struggling for self detemination against a dominant fascistic nationalism, there is nothing rancid about it. You are lying. Link to something rancid if you can.



False, This is mutter blindness to what is really going on in Spain. The two flags do not represent the same thing. The Catalan marches are peaceful and respectful with songs about liberty from Spanish domination, the unionists are frothing at the mouth, bigotted, screaming, sieg heiling and praising the violence of the police when they are not hospitalizing people in impune attacks, like this week in Barcelona. They are full of openly fascist organizations.

The two sides couldn't be more different.



False "Viva la guardia Civil" is not the same as "Visca la Libertat!"

Yeh. You remember when you said anyone who disagreed with Tim Pool was a fascist? And then had to eat a load of humble pie? How would you like your next portion served?

 

[Anudder Oik]

Yeh. When you have a mass movement of all classes the working class never wins out.

I'm sorry it's not a proletarian revolution and I apologize for it being illegal. Jog on and wait for the real thing will you.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm sorry it's not a proletarian revolution and I apologize for it being illegal. Jog on and wait for the real thing will you.

Yeh. Up above you say this is progressive. Perhaps you could point to something which actually illustrates that. It's not the question of legality that bothers me, nor that it isn't a proletarian revolution. E2A Yeh madrid's been shit. But that doesn't make Puigdemont's lot actually progressive save by comparison.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Tweet from the firebrigade in Barcelona about todays unionist march which has seen multiple incidents of fascist violence.

It says: Every time they come out, they show their true colurs (the unionists), Are they capable of protesting in peace without hate?

 

[Favelado]

Are metroscopia part of a conspiracy then?

 

[Gramsci]

False, the catalan side is a mass cross class movement of the people struggling for self detemination against a dominant fascistic nationalism, there is nothing rancid about it. You are lying. Link to something rancid if you can.



False, This is mutter blindness to what is really going on in Spain. The two flags do not represent the same thing. The Catalan marches are peaceful and respectful with songs about liberty from Spanish domination, the unionists are frothing at the mouth, bigotted, screaming, sieg heiling and praising the violence of the police when they are not hospitalizing people in impune attacks, like this week in Barcelona. They are full of openly fascist organizations.

The two sides couldn't be more different.



False "Viva la guardia Civil" is not the same as "Visca la Libertat!"

I was showing my Spanish partner this thread. She's from Madrid. Was discussing this with her today. I think she sees the point that nationalism isnt necessarily progressive or in the interests of the working class. She reckons her father, who sadly died recently, and was member of Socialist party would have opposed Catalan nationalism. She,however, supports the Catalonian struggle on same basis as you that the two sides couldn't be more different. As you put it. That's her take on it as a non Catalan Spanish person. What you've been saying on this thread chimes with what she has been saying to me on this.

She said to me tonight she's been watching what's been happening in Catalonia and thinks that Catalan leader, Puigdemont, is brave to stand up to government in Madrid.

The impression I get from her is that Spain never rooted out completely Francoism when it made the transition to democracy.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Of course, both flags represent the same thing. NOT.

Unionists today in Barcelona











Bernat Castro on Twitter

Bernat Castro on Twitter

Bernat Castro on Twitter

Bernat Castro on Twitter

 

[Anudder Oik]

More of the cunts

 

[Favelado]

What about those polls though?

 

[Anudder Oik]

I was showing my Spanish partner this thread. She's from Madrid. Was discussing this with her today. I think she sees the point that nationalism isnt necessarily progressive or in the interests of the working class. She reckons her father, who sadly died recently, and was member of Socialist party would have opposed Catalan nationalism. She,however, supports the Catalonian struggle on same basis as you that the two sides couldn't be more different. As you put it. That's her take on it as a non Catalan Spanish person. What you've been saying on this thread chimes with what she has been saying to me on this.

She said to me tonight she's been watching what's been happening in Catalonia and thinks that Catalan leader, Puigdemont, is brave to stand up to government in Madrid.

The impression I get from her is that Spain never rooted out completely Francoism when it made the transition to democracy.

I'm glad she has said that. Obviously not a reader of El Pais. Would she be able to say what she thinks in a public place there, what's the atmosphere? Here, people's views are respected by the independetistas and people will try to engage in debate.

The rise in aggressive spanish nationalism these last few weeks has been bigger than anything I've seen and will have serious repercussions for all spaniards if it isn't somehow curbed.

Luckily, in Valencia, people have taken a stand and the turn out for the demo against fascist impunity was massive. There are a few on this thread who still don't understand the basic difference between aggressive socially fascist colonialist nationalism and the struggle to break with it.