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[redsquirrel]

<Snipped load of nationalist arguments for Catalonia independance>

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Even if every one of these arguments was true so what? They are all based on nationalism. I mean you don't even mention self-determination. The fact that there was a Catalan nation at one point in history doesn't make an independent Catalonia in 2017 more or less legitimate.

It's pretty bizarre/silly that after calling the piece Lurdan linked to fascist when you come out with a whole load of arguments that provide the evidence in favour of one it's claims - that the independence movement is based too much on nationalism rather than socialism. Indeed this one, as pointed in that piece is horrible.

Every day 40 million euros leave Catalonia as contributions in taxes to Madrid. Only part is returned. For every 115 euros, 5 are collected directly by the Catalan tax office and afterwards, about 55 are returned to Catalonia from Spain. It is one of the regions with fewer civil servants per capita due to this deficit in funding..... This money going out stunts growth and progress in Catalonia.

Apply it to the UK. "Why should the money generated* in London/SE be spent propping up the the north/south west"

(*of course the idea that London/Catalonia generate this money in some isolated manner is utter nonsense)

 

[Favelado]

Catalan prejudice against Andalusians for being 'lazy' is as frequently-heard as it is snobbish.

 

[JuanTwoThree]

I don't necessarily agree with every word but it's not a bad review of how many people in Spain don't see anybody coming out of this smelling of roses:

"Today was a dark day for Catalonia, Spain, and Europe.
In recent weeks I have seen things that you would not believe.
- I have seen a legitimate Catalan government commit harakiri and strike a mortal blow to Catalonia, condemning it to a shameful journey into the wilderness.
- I have seen 70 out of 135 Parliament members decide on the course to be taken by a country, arrogating to themselves a right to which they are not entitled and distorting the law to silence the minority. Never before has such a meager majority taken a decision so significant without a qualified majority.
- I have seen people in the streets enthusiastically celebrating a declaration of independence that puts them in political limbo and jeopardizes their future.
- I have seen one of Europe’s most cultured, rich and diverse regions hijacked by the most radical of nationalism, dazzled by fantastical promises of a magical secession.
- I have seen educated and sensible people stubbornly deny the evidence: that unilateral independence for Catalonia will seriously damage its economy and shroud its future in uncertainty. In the absence of any international support, not even confirmation that they would lose control of their autonomy was enough to stifle their endeavors.
- I have seen educated citizens liken those claiming that legality is the only defense against arbitrariness to supporters of Franco. I have seen young politicians who situate themselves on the left mocking those who fought against Franco; those who put their lives on the line, not their Twitter followers.
- I have seen senators of the Central Government’s party enthusiastically applaud a law that permits the suspension of Catalonia’s autonomy. Perhaps it is the only way to restore legality, but even if it is only temporary, it is a backward step by any measure. It also sets a dangerous precedent for Spanish nationalists who wish to curtail the guarantees of a quasi-federal State such as the Spanish one. This applause is sickening.
- I have seen how a country that emerged from a dictatorship 40 years ago and that overcame a coup in 1981 is resurrecting the crimes of sedition and rebellion from the penal code, and is willing to apply them with full force.
- I have seen the way that the Catalan conflict has been growing in recent years due to the impassivity of a prime minister who made the greatest mistake a politician can make: to be unable to gauge reality. And when he did finally react, he generated one of the most damaging portrayals of our country in recent times: police officers bearing down on citizens who wanted to vote in an illegal referendum on October 1st.

Spain is currently in a state of shock. Tougher times still await us. The Central Government taking control of the government of Catalonia is full of risks and the greatest of these by far is social division. In the medium term, given the consequences of this staggering failure of politics, this October 27th will go down in history as a dark day for Catalonia, Spain, and Europe"

Montserrat Dominguéz in Huffpost

 

[tim]

How nasty will this get, now? Will it be like when Thatcher abolished the GLC and the Metropolitan counties, could it actually go nice and velvet like Czechoslovakia did, or is there a risk of things going Yugoslav, or some long-lasting low-intensity conflict as in North of Ireland ? I noticed many posts back Anudder Oik making comparisons with Slovenia, but Serbs v Croats would seem the more chilling comparison.

 

[tim]

Catalan prejudice against Andalusians for being 'lazy' is as frequently-heard as it is snobbish.

Or just racist. You get the same shit from North Italians,who often know nothing abb
Out the reality of life in the South.

 

[J Ed]

How nasty will this get, now? Will it be like when Thatcher abolished the GLC and the Metropolitan counties, could it actually go nice and velvet like Czechoslovakia did, or is there a risk of things going Yugoslav, or some long-lasting low-intensity conflict as in North of Ireland ? I noticed many posts back Anudder Oik making comparisons with Slovenia, but Serbs v Croats would seem the more chilling comparison.

There isn't the proliferation of weapons or weapons training that would allow for anything remotely like the Troubles in Northern Ireland let alone a Balkans conflict. Even during the Franco years, there was very little armed resistance from Catalan Nationalists.

 

[tim]

I looked into this a few weeks back. I was struck that the first pro-union protests were in L'Hospitalet and wondered why that may be. My conclusion after looking at various bits of data and information was this. There was a huge in-migration from Spain in the 60s and 70s. This seems to have affected some towns particularly. The towns which boomed seem to be coastal, whereas the older towns inland (Girona/ Vic etc) which today appear to be the hotbeds of Catalan nationalism and culture (including the Catalan language) didn't experience that same growth. Because the in-migrants tended to be working class, there is a class hangover in the social/ demographic makeup of support for indy in such places. This feeds into broader cultural legacies, but is really a proxy for in-migration, rather than a reflection of a working class stance, per se, on indy. The real divide appears to be cultural. If you went to Girona or Vic, I suspect the working class would be relatively solid behind indy.

Catalonia is in Spain or part of the Spanish state, if you prefer. So why not just call people who have moved there from other parts of Spain migrants instead of your silly in-migrant neologism. A word that sounds enough like immigrants to appease the prejudiced, but gets you yourself off being accused of racism.

 

[gosub]

“The declaration of independence voted on today in the Catalan Parliament is a breach of the rule of law, the Spanish constitution and the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia, which are part of the EU’s legal framework. No one in the European Union will recognise this declaration. More than ever, it is necessary to re-establish legality as a basis for dialogue and to guarantee the freedoms and rights of all Catalan citizens.” --European Parliament President statement

 

[planetgeli]

The whole situation is characterised by growing levels of stupidity and nastiness. I still cannot find any rational explanation for Rajoy’s idiotic refusal to allow the referendum to take place, one the secessionists were never going to win. And it’s gone downhill from there. As detailed in the Huffpost posted by JuanTwoThree the stupidity has largely since been claimed by the Catalan nationalists. The nastiness by a Spanish government that has acted with violence and threats, all in the name of “the law”.

How nasty can it get? Blood on the streets of Barcelona. While the world watches live on TV.

 

[Mordi]

“The declaration of independence voted on today in the Catalan Parliament is a breach of the rule of law, the Spanish constitution and the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia, which are part of the EU’s legal framework. No one in the European Union will recognise this declaration. More than ever, it is necessary to re-establish legality as a basis for dialogue and to guarantee the freedoms and rights of all Catalan citizens.” --European Parliament President statement

I thought I'd heard Slovenia had said they'd recognise Catalonia, but I think that was just a bit of fluff. Wonder if Nicola Sturgeon will give it a try.

 

[JuanTwoThree]

I looked into this a few weeks back. I was struck that the first pro-union protests were in L'Hospitalet and wondered why that may be. My conclusion after looking at various bits of data and information was this. There was a huge in-migration from Spain in the 60s and 70s. This seems to have affected some towns particularly. The towns which boomed seem to be coastal, whereas the older towns inland (Girona/ Vic etc) which today appear to be the hotbeds of Catalan nationalism and culture (including the Catalan language) didn't experience that same growth. Because the in-migrants tended to be working class, there is a class hangover in the social/ demographic makeup of support for indy in such places. This feeds into broader cultural legacies, but is really a proxy for in-migration, rather than a reflection of a working class stance, per se, on indy. The real divide appears to be cultural. If you went to Girona or Vic, I suspect the working class would be relatively solid behind indy.

It's Barcelona's 'red belt'

In Catalonia’s ‘red belt’ leftwing veterans distrust the separatists

though things might have shifted a bit in the last month.

 

[tim]

I thought I'd heard Slovenia had said they'd recognise Catalonia, but I think that was just a bit of fluff. Wonder if Nicola Sturgeon will give it a try.

The Republic of Artsakh is probably their best bet.

 

[gosub]

I thought I'd heard Slovenia had said they'd recognise Catalonia, but I think that was just a bit of fluff. Wonder if Nicola Sturgeon will give it a try.

Full on Nation States will stick to EUropean Council Position (Tusk),EU Parliament will be more interesting.

New Catalan currency is a misstep.

 

[butchersapron]

A rather passive and i think quite pathetic statement from CGT and CNT. And a very interesting longer look at what Catalonia is or is claimed to be - including some v useful info about the nationalists parents.

On the idea of opposition to independence being opposed mainly by non-catalans, it must be remembered that the industrial and economic strength of the region was built in large part on the backs of andalusian workers moving to catalonia - thus leaving their native regions poorer and then able to function for the catalan bourgeois as rallying cry demanding the end of catalan subsidy to these lazy regions. So these people have been first exploited economically due to regional poverty and used to build up the economic power of the catalan bourgeoisie, then dismissed by the same as backwards/near fascists/cultural fascists and used to impose the further impoverishment of their originating regions in order to build the political power of that same bourgeoisie. Nice little virtuous circle the bosses got going there eh? I wonder what a similar picture would like in this country? (Btw in their 2nd post above their are examples of the penetration of anti-andalusian prejudices to the highest levels of the CNT at the height of the revolutionary period)

 

[J Ed]

For some context on the anti-Andalucian stuff, some quotes from the former president of the Catalan gov...

Andaluces de Pujol | El Mundo por dentro y por fuera | Blogs | elmundo.es

"The Andalucian is destructive and anarchic. If, by force of his numbers, he comes to dominate without having overcome his own peculiarity, he will destroy Catalonia. He will introduce into it his anarchic and poor mentality".

"The Andalucian for hundreds of years has lived in a state of ignorance".

 

[kebabking]

How nasty will this get, now? Will it be like when Thatcher abolished the GLC and the Metropolitan counties, could it actually go nice and velvet like Czechoslovakia did, or is there a risk of things going Yugoslav, or some long-lasting low-intensity conflict as in North of Ireland ? I noticed many posts back Anudder Oik making comparisons with Slovenia, but Serbs v Croats would seem the more chilling comparison.

like J Ed i see the likelyhood of a long-running, proper civil war as being limited by the lack of anything for the Catalans to fight with, however i forecast neither Trump, Brexit or the 2017 GE, so feel free to test the absorbancy of my predictions...

in the immediate term however a very obvious potential for conflict remains - the (armed) Spanish Federal Police will, assuming Spain actually moves to take physical control of the Catalan government infrastructure, come into contact with the (armed) Catalan State Police. the issue is going to be firstly whether the Catalan Police recognize the Spanish Polices' legitimacy (doubtful), and then what the Spanish Federal Police do when the Catalan police tell them to fuck off.

this could all go very badly wrong in just those circumstances, but if you then add a couple of thousand very excited demonstrators, some fireworks and some ill-chosen words from on high the chances of it going very, very badly wrong go through the ceiling.

i wouldn't be surprised if it fizzles out in the short/medium term with no deaths but lots of hostility and very bad feeling - though in the long term i think Spain has been fatally holed by this idiocy - but i'm afraid that equally i wouldn't fall off my chair if it turned into something between NI and Bosnia.

 

[gosub]

European Union President Jean-Claude Juncker, speaking from French Guyana, said "there isn't room in Europe for other fractures or other cracks. We've had enough of those."

Juncker said the EU wants "to respect the Spanish constitutional and legal order. We are not in favor of letting Europe develop so that tomorrow we'd have 95 member states. Twenty-eight is enough for now."

 

[campanula]

I can see only an awful miltary dominated horror show - I am always profoundly shocked at how apparently easily so many people are urgently pulled down the cheap nationalism road - tribalism of the most regressive type. Spain is not in good shape - the most desperate youth employment, (my home town is increasingly swelled by a youthful educated Spanish cohort) rising homelessness and the usual neo-liberal global brutality which has shat on ordinary workers...while the shallow rule of force and authoritarian stupidity will do nothing to leaven the problems...but ooh, opportunities (for some). The whole thing is depressing.

 

[gosub]

He's setting a fine example. Are you watching Queen Elizabeth II?

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

If this were ‘37 I honestly believe that some of the people on here would be applauding the suppression of the POUM and Friends of Durruti in the name of “anti fascist unity”. The amount of mealy mouthed crap and stuff that sounds similar to corrupt Scottish Labour and Stalinist attacks on Scottish Independence (ie ignoring the radical wing to the movement and constantly harping on about the bourgeois SNP) is depressing. Fuck the Spanish state, fuck the British state, fuck fascists and their apologists, fuck mealy mouthed prevaricators waiting for that elusive perfect movement or time.

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

Also fuck the EU, fuck Putinbots and fuck the kind of “socialists” who repeat the error of 1914 over and over and over.

 

[gosub]

I thought I'd heard Slovenia had said they'd recognise Catalonia, but I think that was just a bit of fluff. Wonder if Nicola Sturgeon will give it a try.

“We understand and respect the position of the Catalan government. While Spain has the right to oppose independence, the people of Catalonia must have the ability to determine their own future,” said Fiona Hyslop( external affairs minister) “The imposition of direct rule cannot be the solution and should be of concern to democrats everywhere.”

 

[J Ed]

If this were ‘37 I honestly believe that some of the people on here would be applauding the suppression of the POUM and Friends of Durruti in the name of “anti fascist unity”. The amount of mealy mouthed crap and stuff that sounds similar to corrupt Scottish Labour and Stalinist attacks on Scottish Independence (ie ignoring the radical wing to the movement and constantly harping on about the bourgeois SNP) is depressing. Fuck the Spanish state, fuck the British state, fuck fascists and their apologists, fuck mealy mouthed prevaricators waiting for that elusive perfect movement or time.

Who here is backing the suppression exactly? I don't think that there is a single person here who does not think that the Catalans have the right to a referendum on independence. No idea whatsoever as to what you are on about about parallels with the suppression of the POUM, the two situations do not seem analogous in any way other than geographically.

 

[butchersapron]

Who here is backing the suppression exactly? I don't think that there is a single person here who does not think that the Catalans have the right to a referendum on independence. No idea whatsoever as to what you are on about about parallels with the suppression of the POUM, the two situations do not seem analogous in any way other than geographically.

...and it was the people who he is now demanding an 'anti-fascist unity' with who, in fact, carried out the suppression of the POUM and the FOD. And he's doing it on the basis that an anti-fascist unity with them in the past was a disastrous mistake and something that shouldn't have been done. Bizarre stuff. Sounds like he wants to shoot some people.

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

I’m not demanding unity with anyone. I’m criticising whinging fence sitters and comfortable purists. For the Generalitat of 1937 with its Stalinist manipulators substitute the Spanish PP led govt. For the POUM and the CNT read the CUP and the Intersindical CSC. Neither side is going to live up to any purist standards on here. But even the fence sitters of Podemos and the anti government unions of the CNT and CGT can see the need to defend against the unleashed power of the Spanish state, regardless of what they think of Puigdemont and bourgeois separatism. Not so our resident cynics, clapping on Stanley Edwards who does sound like someone who has taken sides, and it is not the Catalan one.

 

[J Ed]

I’m not demanding unity with anyone. I’m criticising whinging fence sitters and comfortable purists. For the Generalitat of 1937 with its Stalinist manipulators substitute the Spanish PP led govt. For the POUM and the CNT read the CUP and the Intersindical CSC. Neither side is going to live up to any purist standards on here. But even the fence sitters of Podemos and the anti government unions of the CNT and CGT can see the need to defend against the unleashed power of the Spanish state, regardless of what they think of Puigdemont and bourgeois separatism. Not so our resident cynics, clapping on Stanley Edwards who does sound like someone who has taken sides, and it is not the Catalan one.

One minute you are denouncing fence sitters, a category you apparently include Podemos in, and then say that the fence sitters apparently aren't fence sitting. I think that you are very confused here.

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

There is fence sitting on the question of the potential success or value of Catalan independence, whilst still standing against Spanish state repression -as shown by Podemos and the CNT and CGT and is a legit position, though not one I necessarily agree 100% with - and there is fence sitting as something which is really a shy support of the status quo that sees any disruption or challenge to Spanish State as illegitimate and echoes their suggested “solutions” (Edwards) or fence sitting that is a symptom of a purism that does not recognise any potential for development of a larger challenge to Spanish and European Capital &authorities and their defenders, and high mindedly dismisses the Catalan left as hopelessly compromised by alliance with the bourgeoisie. (Some others on here). To see these latter revolutionary defeatists clapping Edwards apologism and even attacking the nuanced positions of the CGT and CNT is particularly sickening.

 

[J Ed]

There is fence sitting on the question of the potential success or value of Catalan independence, whilst still standing against Spanish state repression -as shown by Podemos and the CNT and CGT and is a legit position, though not one I necessarily agree 100% with - and there is fence sitting as something which is really a shy support of the status quo that sees any disruption or challenge to Spanish State as illegitimate and echoes their suggested “solutions” (Edwards) or fence sitting that is a symptom of a purism that does not recognise any potential for development of a larger challenge to Spanish and European Capital &authorities and their defenders, and high mindedly dismisses the Catalan left as hopelessly compromised by alliance with the bourgeoisie. (Some others on here). To see these latter revolutionary defeatists clapping Edwards apologism and even attacking the nuanced positions of the CGT and CNT is particularly sickening.

So what percentage of the Catalan population supports independence then?

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

So what percentage of the Catalan population supports independence then?

Who knows? The PP led Spanish state made sure that a proper referendum could not be held and indicated they would never allow one - with the PSOE in tow. I would guess that the behaviour of the Spanish state has increased the percentage in favour, but who knows? In the current circumstances, going on about percentages is rather beside the point. We are where we are. Decisions have been taken. It is how things now pan out that will determine the short term outcome and longer term implications.

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

In a situation of dual power, opportunities often arise for other social actors. Perhaps people on here should be looking at that rather than following the establishment and MSM narrative.