Raheem
Well-Known Member
That's not what will happen, though. Madrid would do the article 155 thing, which would presumably be the objective of making a declaration. Maybe they will waver, though.
Spanish Political News
- Thread starter dessiato
- Start date
That's not what will happen, though. Madrid would do the article 155 thing, which would presumably be the objective of making a declaration. Maybe they will waver, though.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
They probably will go down the direct rule route - it is in line with the way they have handled it, after all - but if they responded by accepting it (UDI) then suddenly the Catalan state has a huge and probably fatal tsunami of problems headed its way.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Catalonian govt spokesman on the radio just now saying an independent Catalonia should get to be in the EU because we're already in the EU seems confused about what 'being in the EU' actually means.
On the plus side there's one country I can think of which is currentIy seeking partners beyond the EU...
On the plus side there's one country I can think of which is currentIy seeking partners beyond the EU...
dessiato
🇪🇸 my spirit is crying for leaving
Which would be more than was offered in the civil war.
The cross-section of Spanish society that was prepared to go along with Juan Carlos's accession represented a slightly more nuanced situation than 'he was Franco's heir', although he was. Obviously he was also acceptable to the considerable number of monarchists, but only after some manoeuvring to clear the line of succession, including his father's renouncing his claims post hoc to the coronation. J-C was also acceptable to a great many moderates who saw a European constitutional monarchy as a compromise that would not lead to a second civil war: the euro-communists went along with it too. The fact that we have a king and a president is another fudge.
However a great many people describe themselves as 'more Juan-Carlist than monarchist' and feel deprived of the debate that would have ensued if Juanca (pronounced wanker) had died. A lot of people would have said 'Well that got out us out of a mess, but should the monarchy continue?' His abdication and the seamless take-over of his lacklustre heir has been very clever, but hasn't pleased many reluctant monarchists of my age.
Arnaldo Otegi, somebody a bit like Gerry Adams but in the Basque Country, once said something like 'Perhaps we can all be Spanish when the country ceases to exist' and I know a lot of people who say that, or something like it. But I don't move in typical circles.
If Spain was more like Scandinavia, or the British Isles in the event of an independent Scotland, then how different would things really be? If the 'Unionists' for want of a better term behave like this then I can see more people saying 'What the hell? Not in my name'
However a great many people describe themselves as 'more Juan-Carlist than monarchist' and feel deprived of the debate that would have ensued if Juanca (pronounced wanker) had died. A lot of people would have said 'Well that got out us out of a mess, but should the monarchy continue?' His abdication and the seamless take-over of his lacklustre heir has been very clever, but hasn't pleased many reluctant monarchists of my age.
Arnaldo Otegi, somebody a bit like Gerry Adams but in the Basque Country, once said something like 'Perhaps we can all be Spanish when the country ceases to exist' and I know a lot of people who say that, or something like it. But I don't move in typical circles.
If Spain was more like Scandinavia, or the British Isles in the event of an independent Scotland, then how different would things really be? If the 'Unionists' for want of a better term behave like this then I can see more people saying 'What the hell? Not in my name'
Tankus
Amused OAP
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
Hristo Stoichkov, of the Barcelona football club dream team in the 90's, has called Soraya Saenz de Santa Maria a Francoist. She gave the order for the violence. He also says in his interview how her grandfather was a francoist, her father was a francoist, she is a francoist and her children are francoists. He calls for to resign. The PP are looking into taking legal action against him.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
The chief of the mossos to be charged with sedition. In fact, the francoist judges are part of the assault on Catalonia and are doing overtime.
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
Fuckers.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
slow motion train wreck.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
I dunno, that might risk a worse result, both voting wise and also more injuries/possible deaths?
Declare independence, form citizens militias, declare an autonomous socialist zone?
Failing that... sit back and watch the Spanish State and monarchy destroy Spain as a single entity through macho incompetence?
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Yeah, just chatting to a friend of mine in Barcelona, they're convinced nobody (Catalan or Spanish authorities) are going to back down and it'll get bloody.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
i take a similar view - there aren't any good outcomes to this, its going to go bad (and i mean bad), its merely a question of which version of shit it turns into.
personally i'm of the view that why i think the ref was too compromised to be considered the legitimate expression of the will of the electorate, further elections and possibly a further ref appear to me to be nothing but an opportunity for the Spanish state to stick the boot in without actually providing any greater legitimacy.
given the very obvious, and not about to change, hostility of the Spanish state, i think that the only realistic option is to UDI within the Kingdom of Spain, which may head off a military response. the federal police are much more obviously creatures of the central Spanish state, but the Catalans have their own police.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
In terms of where it goes next, it's hard too see Madrid backing down. Puigdemont has gained a temporary authority and unity after the state violence, but how strong is his position in the medium term? Is it clear that the Catalan Parliament will actually back a formal declaration of UDI? At the moment things sound to be a bit fluid - 'we'll have the final figures early next week and then go to the parliament'. Is he using it as a bargaining chip or really going to go for it? If the former, the state will probably call his bluff.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
When the Rhodesians went for UDI they had the sympathy of South Africa, and the more concealed sympathy of a lot of people in high places in the UK and the USA.
That helped them run rings around the sanctions regime that they were hit with for declaring independence unilaterally and illegally.
Would a UDI Catalonia have anything like that sort of back-up to call on?
That helped them run rings around the sanctions regime that they were hit with for declaring independence unilaterally and illegally.
Would a UDI Catalonia have anything like that sort of back-up to call on?
Flavour
hang the bankers
UDI would mean catastrophic economic punishment from Spain, the EU and the world and, in the worst case scenario, military occupation of Catalonia. Do the Catalan government really want to risk that? It would seem to be political suicide for anyone involved in it (unless, idk, martyred allende style)
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
This is an instructive piece -
The violent side of Spain has resurfaced. We Catalans must cut loose | Jordi Borrell Celades
It shows how the Spanish state has not so much (or not at all) 'radicalised' the rich but swung many of them behind independence The writer is the head of a Catalan chemical company. He also comes out with a line about the violence on Sunday being 'worse than anything seen under Franco'.
You get a sense of rich Spaniards being forced to confront the past, but still not seeing it for what it was.
The violent side of Spain has resurfaced. We Catalans must cut loose | Jordi Borrell Celades
It shows how the Spanish state has not so much (or not at all) 'radicalised' the rich but swung many of them behind independence The writer is the head of a Catalan chemical company. He also comes out with a line about the violence on Sunday being 'worse than anything seen under Franco'.
You get a sense of rich Spaniards being forced to confront the past, but still not seeing it for what it was.
DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
TBF, he said he didn't remember violence as bad as that meted out by the police on Sunday” during the “worst Franco years”. He was born in 1961 so would have been 14 or 15 when Franco died.This is an instructive piece -
The violent side of Spain has resurfaced. We Catalans must cut loose | Jordi Borrell Celades
It shows how the Spanish state has not so much (or not at all) 'radicalised' the rich but swung many of them behind independence The writer is the head of a Catalan chemical company. He also comes out with a line about the violence on Sunday being 'worse than anything seen under Franco'.
Also, he is not “the head of a Catalan chemical company”, but “the head of sales at a chemical company based in Barcelona”.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Please stop undermining my hyperbole!
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
I rest my case.
DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
Please stop undermining my hyperbole!
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It was a massively misjudged speech. Strikes me that he was trying to emulate his father during the tejerazo, stepping in to act as the arbiter of the constitution. And he's right of course that the vote was not legal according to the constitution, but his condemnation of Catalan actions in the name of democracy really doesn't work. This wasn't an attempted coup and he's acting like it was.
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
It may seem an academic point in the face of the violence of the Spanish state, but I don't think we can talk about 'colonialism' here as though it is the same as colonising Bolivia. Catalonia is a wealthy region and has been a significant player in the social, economic and cultural life of Spain for a long time. The suppression of the Catalan language and so on was a phase that had colonialist shadings but I don't think that's the end of the story - it's not like Catalonia currently occupies the role of most oppressed and exploited part of the nation. Catalonia has also benefited from Spanish colonialism itself, and Catalans have been players in it.
The stupid thing the Spanish state has done is provide a convincing argument that Catalans would be better off under the Catalan elite than the Spanish elite, but in other ways it is not clear that would be the case.
Anyway, I wish the strikers good luck in getting greater control over their own lives, even if I'm not totally convinced of their vehicle for doing that.
Flavour
hang the bankers
Italian media reporting that the Catalonian government has said it will declare independence on Monday. Madrid apparently sending army convoys to Catalonia. You know what the Italian press are like though, much more prone to printing stuff before it's "confirmed" than English papers.
Catalogna, Cup: “Lunedì proclameremo l’indipendenza”. Madrid invia l’esercito
Catalogna, Cup: “Lunedì proclameremo l’indipendenza”. Madrid invia l’esercito
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Why wouldn't they? The reputations damage has been done so they have nothing to lose.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
This will fuck the EU over much more than BREXIT alone is doing. So, assuming nobody's nerve breaks, lots of fragmentation and realignment on the cards.
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