Should the UK have immigration controls?

[audiotech]

so workers control is er anti working class

.. i forgot .. the swp like to be in charge over the ignorent racist backward workers

Controls over workers by the state is anti-working class and I'm not an SWP member.

 

[mk12]

Controls over workers by the state is anti-working class

But working class control over borders is what a few people on here are arguing for. Not state control.

 

[audiotech]

I'm not a fan of Frank field but he is correct in this matter at least as far as the article goes.
Don't underestimate the BNP, they are very dangerous. They are using these thickos as foot soldiers to stir up trouble. The more trouble, the more it brings race to the news, the more they can say 'niggers and pakis' are causing problems.
I can only suggest that you go to a BNP meeting (if you are white that is) and listen to them. Just play along a little and you get to hear a little of what is behind the rants and seemingly inept crap they preach.
Anyway back to the thread.

Frank Field is grandstanding. That's all he does.

I've been involved in anti-fascist activity since the late 70's, so I've seen most things including fascist meetings.

Our controls are rubbish and wrong in who they allow to stay. We need tighter controls to keep bastards like this out. I don't give a shit what passport he may have I don't want a cunt like this in the country.
Without using his status as a commonwealth or irish (I don't know what is status is outside this) can you give me one good reason for allowing a man who is guilty of multipul crimes including murder to stay in the UK.

You might not like it, but under current law he is entitled to stay here as a commonwealth, or Irish citizen. I do notice however that he has served time in prison for his crimes (the details of which are slim in the article you post a link to). How would have tighter controls kept him out?

It's unrealistic and rather silly to suggest that laws should be changed over one case, because such a change will affect the rights of many who have never committed any crime and I can't think of any policy that would stop such things happenning, rare as they are thankfully.

 

[audiotech]

But working class control over borders is what a few people on here are arguing for. Not state control.

Let me get this straight, a few lone individuals from a discussion site are issuing the slogan: "workers control over borders" OK. Seems a big leap when workers haven't even got control over any of the goods they produce, but anyway, does that slogan call for tighter immigration controls over workers today?

 

[mk12]

Seems a big leap when workers haven't even got control over any of the goods they produce, but anyway, does that slogan call for tighter immigration controls over workers today?

It seems a big leap to call for "no borders" when roughly 98% of people want borders, and a majority of those want tighter controls.

And whether these people want tighter borders, enforced by the state, is irrelevant. The fight should be about who decides - workers, or the state. We should always argue for more democracy, more control, more decision making. Not - should the state do this or that.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

It seems a big leap to call for "no borders" when roughly 98% of people want borders, and a majority of those want tighter controls.

And whether these people want tighter borders, enforced by the state, is irrelevant. The fight should be about who decides - workers, or the state. We should always argue for more democracy, more control, more decision making. Not - should the state do this or that.

It seems a big leap to call for workers revolution when 98% of workers think this is silly, but still a leap that we need to make!

Let me get this straight MattKidd are you a supporter of immigration controls? If so, you have not only severed your links with the SWP, but also with revolutionary socialism

 

[mk12]

I don't really have a view on it to be honest. Under capitalism, immigration controls will not go. It's something that the left has nothing in common with wider society, so why campaign on it? Why not campaign on issues which it can have an impact? Bread-and-butter issues.

If we accept that immigration controls under capitalism will not go, then why not give up on that particular issue and focus on something that is achievable?

 

[Udo Erasmus]

And so begins Mattkid's slipperly slide towards reformism.

 

[mk12]

Why? By saying that the left should focus on issues which are relevant to people, and achievable in the short term?

 

[audiotech]

It seems a big leap to call for "no borders" when roughly 98% of people want borders, and a majority of those want tighter controls.

It's not so long ago when borders came down in Eastern Europe that millions came out onto the streets to celebrate that event.

And whether these people want tighter borders, enforced by the state, is irrelevant. The fight should be about who decides - workers, or the state. We should always argue for more democracy, more control, more decision making. Not - should the state do this or that.

Tighter controls on the movement of labour by the state is very relevant and one I continue to oppose.

It's a given on progressives to argue for more democracy, control and decision making, even though it appears as a plea for reform from those in power.

The argument who decides - workers, or the state is just another ultra-left meaningless slogan in the here and now, as workers are not in a position of strength to argue that. At least "no borders" has some relevance in the very recent past.

 

[chilango]

...also remembering that borders within the EU came down in 1992.

 

[mk12]

The argument who decides - workers, or the state is just another ultra-left meaningless slogan in the here and now, as workers are not in a position of strength to argue that. At least "no borders" has some relevance in the very recent past.

The question of "who decides" is arguably the most important issue for socialists. All of our activity should be based around that. In every struggle, we should be trying to encourage this. In my opinion of course.

Take immigration. It's a huge issue for people. So if someone asked me what I thought, i'd say that I believe local communities should decide. This pushes the idea of working class control over decisions. Whereas you'd say, "the state should abolish controls altogether." That does not in any way push the idea of working class control and the "self-emancipation" of the class. Its simply the flip-side of the rights arguments - still relying on the state.

 

[audiotech]

The question of "who decides" is arguably the most important issue for socialists. All of our activity should be based around that. In every struggle, we should be trying to encourage this. In my opinion of course.

If I went up to a mate of mine who works in the building trade and said "who decides". He'd probably say you been watching Big Brother again.

Take immigration. It's a huge issue for people. So if someone asked me what I thought, i'd say that I believe local communities should decide. This pushes the idea of working class control over decisions. Whereas you'd say, "the state should abolish controls altogether." That does not in any way push the idea of working class control and the "self-emancipation" of the class. Its simply the flip-side of the rights arguments - still relying on the state.

You've already said that you would dodge the question. A further reinstatement of that cowardly position is not necessary.

I would not say "the state should abolish controls altogether". Rather, I would continue to oppose controls by the state on the working class.

 

[mk12]

If I went up to a mate of mine who works in the building trade and said "who decides". He'd probably say you been watching Big Brother again.

Example: where I worked previously, someone was complaining about how little supervisors actually do. I said that he was probably right, and that any of us could do what they do. He said it would be a lot cheaper that way too.

I didn't do this consciously, we were just having a chat about it. But that's sort of an argument for workers' control of the workplace.

You've already said that you would dodge the question. A further reinstatement of that cowardly position is not necessary.

I didn't say I would dodge the question. I said I don't really have a position on it, apart from believing that local communities/areas should decide the question.

I would continue to oppose controls by the state on the working class.

How would this be achieved? You obviously want the government to abolish controls.

 

[durruti02]

Let me get this straight MattKidd are you a supporter of immigration controls? If so, you have not only severed your links with the SWP, but also with revolutionary socialism

udo .. as a socialist you should be fking ashamed .. this is the sort of odious threatenning bullshit that we have over the years ( in my case going back to 1977 ) come to expect from the SWP .. pathetic ... stalinist authoritiarian shit

if you had the brains you would understand that matt, like many of us who came through the SWP, has intelligently noticed ( it is not hard) that the SWP are almost entirely ( and thru their own making) divorced from the w/c

he has further looked at why e.g. below (from 04/07)

" .. Take immigration. It's a huge issue for people. So if someone asked me what I thought, i'd say that I believe local communities should decide. This pushes the idea of working class control over decisions. Whereas you'd say, "the state should abolish controls altogether." That does not in any way push the idea of working class control and the "self-emancipation" of the class. Its simply the flip-side of the rights arguments - still relying on the state. .."

this is both the thinking and conclusions of an REAL revolutionary socialist ..

you and your ilk are in comparison and reality just a bunch of middle class liberals

 

[durruti02]

Let me get this straight, a few lone individuals from a discussion site are issuing the slogan: "workers control over borders" OK. Seems a big leap when workers haven't even got control over any of the goods they produce, but anyway, does that slogan call for tighter immigration controls over workers today?

it is fascinating how we can repeat ad nauseam on here ..

" we want workers control over labour .. initially locally thru the workplace .. etc etc .. "

and yet the SW faction can only hear Immigration Controls ..why is this???

i suspect it is as you are so divorced from this basic idea of workers control you can not even comprehend the idea

the other key point of this ( in fact what this whole debate is really about) is how we rebuild the w/c organisations/power .. it is a shame so few SW are involved in the day to day of w/c struggle .. maybe then you might have the insight, that those of us who do have , that you so ridicule ..

 

[Fruitloop]

i.e. 'How can we have socialism, but still keep the proles in line?'

 

[tbaldwin]

It seems a big leap to call for workers revolution when 98% of workers think this is silly, but still a leap that we need to make!

Let me get this straight MattKidd are you a supporter of immigration controls? If so, you have not only severed your links with the SWP, but also with revolutionary socialism

Is it a bird is it a plane?
No its UDO and the SWP leaping over 98% of the population..
The poor thick uneducated bastards.....

 

[audiotech]

Example: where I worked previously, someone was complaining about how little supervisors actually do. I said that he was probably right, and that any of us could do what they do. He said it would be a lot cheaper that way too.

I didn't do this consciously, we were just having a chat about it. But that's sort of an argument for workers' control of the workplace.

So what was your response to that excellent observation? What practical steps do you think is needed for workers control?

I didn't say I would dodge the question. I said I don't really have a position on it, apart from believing that local communities/areas should decide the question.

No, you didn't say that. I know you don't have a position and you're leaving that choice to local communities.

How would this be achieved? You obviously want the government to abolish controls.

No present day government is going to do that. A revolutionary transformation of society carried out by the working class internationally will in time though.

 

[mk12]

No present day government is going to do that.

Yet you call on them to do that?

So what was your response to that excellent observation? What practical steps do you think is needed for workers control?

I guess confidence in being able to take control is one of the most important things firstly.

 

[durruti02]

. A revolutionary transformation of society carried out by the working class internationally will in time though.

but you won't ever ever get that if you consisently dis empower people as the left do ..

 

[audiotech]

it is fascinating how we can repeat ad nauseam on here ..

" we want workers control over labour .. initially locally thru the workplace .. etc etc .. "

and yet the SW faction can only hear Immigration Controls ..why is this???

You contradict yourself durr. You claim you want workers control over labour fine, but you also call for immigration controls (a control over labour) to be tightened?

i suspect it is as you are so divorced from this basic idea of workers control you can not even comprehend the idea

Suspect what you want, but you're wrong.

the other key point of this ( in fact what this whole debate is really about) is how we rebuild the w/c organisations/power .. it is a shame so few SW are involved in the day to day of w/c struggle .. maybe then you might have the insight, that those of us who do have , that you so ridicule ..

I attended a meeting this week with other workers trying to effectively organise communications between each other. I've been a working class activist most of my life, some of it within the SWP, some not, so don't come out with your usual bollocks to try and make yourselves out as the only true sons and daughters of toil.

 

[audiotech]

Yet you call on them to do that?

When? Where?

I guess confidence in being able to take control is one of the most important things firstly.

What about organisation?

 

[audiotech]

but you won't ever ever get that if you consisently dis empower people as the left do ..

I keep telling people to get off their arses.

 

[mk12]

When? Where?



What about organisation?

you support a "no borders" position today, in the here and now.

Of course "organisation". Not the same type of organisation you have in mind, I presume.

 

[durruti02]

You contradict yourself durr. You claim you want workers control over labour fine, but you also call for immigration controls (a control over labour) to be tightened?

A

Suspect what you want, but you're wrong.
I attended a meeting this week with other workers trying to effectively organise communications between each other. I've been a working class activist most of my life, some of it within the SWP, some not, so don't come out with your usual bollocks to try and make yourselves out as the only true sons and daughters of toil.

B

A .. mc5 i have never called for immigration controls nor contradicted myself .. i have consistently said thru this and other threads the issue is that immigration is currently as a consequnece of capitalism .. therefore the response is anti capitalist and involves fighting for and gaining power locally ..

B ..sorry but i can draw no other conclusions based on what you say in this thread .. i know many w/c activists who have fallen for the SW/leftist orthodoxy .. and are divorced from class struggle .. they might get elected and go to conference but essentially they have little or no understanding of what is being thought/said on the shop floor .. you come out with some good stuff on here generally but on this you do not seem to understand what is being argued by me and matt and others .. that the critical thing is workers decide .. only from this basic premise can progressive politics emerge/evolve .. imposing 'correct' positions usually ends up in reaction as we see today

tell me .. why do u object to workers control of the workplace when marx (and all my colleagues) support it???

 

[audiotech]

you support a "no borders" position today, in the here and now.

Yes, but that doesn't mean I delude myself into thinking the present government (or any government) is going to heed my advice.

Of course "organisation". Not the same type of organisation you have in mind, I presume.

A revolutionary, or reformist "organisation" do you think, or are you waiting for the community to decide?

 

[durruti02]

I keep telling people to get off their arses.

fair play! but the general leftist ideology IS dis empowering as it states that 1) only a party can liberate people ( and then all the parties fking argue over which is best!) and 2) that ONLY an outside ideology can change things

as MK said below

" ..The question of "who decides" is arguably the most important issue for socialists. All of our activity should be based around that. In every struggle, we should be trying to encourage this. In my opinion of course..."

this .. the above .. is anti capitalism / is anti facism / is revolutionary socialism now ..

and to 'give' power to people .. we must lose power ourselves .. over organisations ..and ideology .. this is something the left will i know find very hard to get their heads around but it is essential ..

 

[audiotech]

A .. mc5 i have never called for immigration controls nor contradicted myself .. i have consistently said thru this and other threads the issue is that immigration is currently as a consequnece of capitalism .. therefore the response is anti capitalist and involves fighting for and gaining power locally ..

B ..sorry but i can draw no other conclusions based on what you say in this thread .. i know many w/c activists who have fallen for the SW/leftist orthodoxy .. and are divorced from class struggle .. they might get elected and go to conference but essentially they have little or no understanding of what is being thought/said on the shop floor .. you come out with some good stuff on here generally but on this you do not seem to understand what is being argued by me and matt and others .. that the critical thing is workers decide .. only from this basic premise can progressive politics emerge/evolve .. imposing 'correct' positions usually ends up in reaction as we see today

tell me .. why do u object to workers control of the workplace when marx (and all my colleagues) support it???

I don't object to workers control.

I have never been to a union conference in my life (stood outside a few though).

If you've never called for immigration controls then fine I apologise.

Must go.

 

[durruti02]

I don't object to workers control.

I have never been to a union conference in my life (stood outside a few though).

If you've never called for immigration controls then fine I apologise.

Must go.

ta for apology ..

the substantive issue is this though .. i support workers stopping their managment importing cheap labour .. a la irish ferries

do you agree with this??