Should the UK have immigration controls?

[durruti02]

The state and capital. I am arguing for the control by areas' communities.

exactly!!!.. real socialism!!!

( ... the problem is the top down left do not get this .. )

 

[Giles]

Yes if the world was more equal the no borders arguement would be fine...But as it isnt and poor countries losing skilled workers makes the siuation worse.Noone should really back no borders now...Unless they just dont give a shit about people in poorer countries.

How do you suggest that countries prevent their skilled people from leaving?

By building a secure border, a la Iron Curtain?

By refusing to give them passports?

Sounds pretty nasty to me.......

Giles..

 

[durruti02]

How do you suggest that countries prevent their skilled people from leaving?

By building a secure border, a la Iron Curtain?

By refusing to give them passports?

Sounds pretty nasty to me.......

Giles..

you must have missed this giles ( especially on the John Cruddas thread who talked of the state encouraging immigration )

but the solution as has been said many times is to stop UKinc encouraging cheap immigration , to stop capitalists advertising for and importing labour .. to tighten employment law so capitalists can not employ illegal workers .. etc etc etc .. there is no need for an iron curtain

 

[audiotech]

If we have no controls on labour there will be mass unemployment as too many will come. Some factories in this area have dumped all their UK workers and have employment agencies who supply cheap foreign workers. We are in a high unemployment area so we don't need them. Cheap for the factory but expensive for those who have no job and expensive for the government as they have to pay benefits to those without work.

The highest rate of unemployment in the UK at one time was Northern Ireland. At the same time it had the lowest level of immigration in Europe. Why do I hear all the time that there are labour shortages in certain economic sectors like retail, agriculture and leisure industry (hotel and catering)?

If some one has a medical condition that could be passed to others what is wrong with protecting those people who live here.

Health checks don't protect they highlight any health problem an individual may have. The biggest health threat at the moment is avian flu (unlikely to be stopped by health checks). What about UK tourists do they get a health check when they return from holiday, or working abroad?

Excluding those whose crime is to have a political opinion against that of their government if they have the death penalty they will have hurt someone in their own country. If they have done wrong there why do we want them here.

I see you've excluded asylum seekers under threat from political persecution which was missing from your last post.

However, it's interesting to note that community campaigners in Shetland have said they are “cautiously optimistic” with regards to the bail hearing of a young Shetland man of Thai origin who is threatened with deportation. Sakchai Makao has been held in prison in since early June and was set to appear before majistrates this week. He was snatched from his house in Lerwick by police and immigration officers in the morning of 6 June. He has been living in Shetland with his family since he was ten and in Britain since he was seven, and has indefinite leave to remain in Britain. Sakchai has been rounded up as one of the more than 1,000 foreign nationals with a criminal record that the home office is keen to deport. This follows media reports that the country is supposedly full of dangerous foreign criminals. Islanders have made it clear that they don’t regard Sakchai as dangerous, but as a valuable member of society. A huge campaign to firstly free him from prison and then to fight the deportation order served on him by the home office, continues to gain strength. More than 7,000 people – a third of the island’s population – have signed a petition calling on home secretary John Reid to send Sakchai back to his Shetland home, and around 800 islanders attended a rally last week.

The local community have decided they want him to stay, you would want him deported of course.

If Mr Blair is in favour of these things then I would have to agree with him.
I can't stand racism but I think that those who would allow an open door policy are a far greater danger than the BNP and their idiots

No more controls on labour how is this "dangerous"?

 

[Giles]

you must have missed this giles ( especially on the John Cruddas thread who talked of the state encouraging immigration )

but the solution as has been said many times is to stop UKinc encouraging cheap immigration , to stop capitalists advertising for and importing labour .. to tighten employment law so capitalists can not employ illegal workers .. etc etc etc .. there is no need for an iron curtain

That might help a bit.

Although there are already laws against employing illegals, aren't there?

Tbaldwin has stated that he doesn't think that "skilled workers" from poor countries should be allowed to go and work anywhere else.

I was just wondering how he would prevent them from doing so.

I mean, let's say you are a doctor or a nurse in a poor country and you want to go and earn more money elsewhere.

Do you think you should be able to leave, or not?

Giles..

 

[audiotech]

I believe local communities should decide if they want immigrants to come to their area.

Let me put the question another way to see if I can get an answer from you instead of the usual dodging the question to appear more radical.

As a member of your own local community what would your position be on the issue of immigration? More controls, or not? What, in your opinion as a member of your local community, would these controls on workers be if any?

 

[durruti02]

Let me put the question another way to see if I can get an answer from you instead of the usual dodging the question to appear more radical.

As a member of your own local community what would your position be on the issue of immigration? More controls, or not? What, in your opinion as a member of your local community, would these controls on workers be if any?

sorry to jump in but imho you are obsessing on controls .. it is more about positive help for local people .. sons and daughters housing policies .. local employment etc

 

[durruti02]

That might help a bit.

Although there are already laws against employing illegals, aren't there?

Tbaldwin has stated that he doesn't think that "skilled workers" from poor countries should be allowed to go and work anywhere else.

I was just wondering how he would prevent them from doing so.

I mean, let's say you are a doctor or a nurse in a poor country and you want to go and earn more money elsewhere.

Do you think you should be able to leave, or not?

Giles..

the laws are clearly not enforced .. around here the state raids factories once a year .. lets the companies get on with it for the reat of the time and keeps workers under the cosh ..

again look at the positive not the negative please .. we need to create a situation where there is NO work for skilled or unskilled immigrants as all vacancies are being filled by people who live here .. the only reason third world doctors/nurses come here is that we do not train enough people to do that job here .. wemust do that first .

and then we can help the third world with their problems too ..

(then we will be in a differrent debate .. )

 

[audiotech]

sorry to jump in but imho you are obsessing on controls .. it is more about positive help for local people .. sons and daughters housing policies .. local employment etc

Controls on labour are not positive they are against the interests of the working class.

 

[greenman]

the laws are clearly not enforced .. around here the state raids factories once a year .. lets the companies get on with it for the reat of the time and keeps workers under the cosh ..

again look at the positive not the negative please .. we need to create a situation where there is NO work for skilled or unskilled immigrants as all vacancies are being filled by people who live here .. the only reason third world doctors/nurses come here is that we do not train enough people to do that job here .. wemust do that first .

and then we can help the third world with their problems too ..

(then we will be in a differrent debate .. )

Interesting debate. But how likely , and in what timescale, is "full employment" which Durruti02 is suggesting is necessary before there is no work for skilled or unskilled immigrant labour? It is the "holy grail" of left of centre parliamentarism, but has evaded governments in Western Europe (Partly through deliberate policy and design, I know) for the last 30-40 odd years.... And the vacancies existing is one, but not the ONLY reason developing country professionals come to the UK - there are push as well as pull factors.
Why do you think "we" (and who is we?) do not train enough health professionals, Durruti02?

 

[greenman]

Of course the other way of ensuring there are "no vacancies" for foreign labour would be a recession/depression and massive cuts in provision....

 

[Crazy_diamond]

I personally don't believe you'd get many places that would do that.

It would only take one to start a trend

I understand what you mean I just don't believe it would work

 

[greenman]

...and the other problem is, full employment and skill shortages go together like bread and butter......

 

[big footed fred]

The highest rate of unemployment in the UK at one time was Northern Ireland. At the same time it had the lowest level of immigration in Europe. Why do I hear all the time that there are labour shortages in certain economic sectors like retail, agriculture and leisure industry (hotel and catering)?

The political problems and killings in this region make it unsuitable to use as an argument for your case. As for the agriculture and leisure industry I will study and make an argument later.

Health checks don't protect they highlight any health problem an individual may have. The biggest health threat at the moment is avian flu (unlikely to be stopped by health checks). What about UK tourists do they get a health check when they return from holiday, or working abroad?

http://members.iinet.net.au/~migrate/information/health.html
Works for them. What's wrong with us doing the same. Would you keep the same opinion if a close member of your family got TB from a migrant ?

I see you've excluded asylum seekers under threat from political persecution which was missing from your last post.

Depends on the reason they enter the UK. Mass asylum from war torn coutries is a bad idea. Better to help end the war and make the area stable.
Political opinion is one thing but anyone who uses a gun or bomb is another.
A war zone must be a terrible place to be but we can't afford to invite all the people here.

However, it's interesting to note that community campaigners in Shetland have said they are “cautiously optimistic” with regards to the bail hearing of a young Shetland man of Thai origin who is threatened with deportation. Sakchai Makao has been held in prison in since early June and was set to appear before majistrates this week. He was snatched from his house in Lerwick by police and immigration officers in the morning of 6 June. He has been living in Shetland with his family since he was ten and in Britain since he was seven, and has indefinite leave to remain in Britain. Sakchai has been rounded up as one of the more than 1,000 foreign nationals with a criminal record that the home office is keen to deport. This follows media reports that the country is supposedly full of dangerous foreign criminals. Islanders have made it clear that they don’t regard Sakchai as dangerous, but as a valuable member of society. A huge campaign to firstly free him from prison and then to fight the deportation order served on him by the home office, continues to gain strength. More than 7,000 people – a third of the island’s population – have signed a petition calling on home secretary John Reid to send Sakchai back to his Shetland home, and around 800 islanders attended a rally last week.

The local community have decided they want him to stay, you would want him deported of course.

I know many illegals here. The fact they are illegal does not mean that they are unfit to be here. In many cases I know of white anglo saxon males I would far sooner see deported than the illegals.
A while ago I looked at my mobile's memory. 20 out of 200 contacts were foreign nationals. All but 5 are illegals in the UK.
2 of the latter have just returned home to malaysia and were refused educational visas.
I say again that UK policy on this matter stinks. We allow those that are harmful to stay to keep the PC lot shut and reduce the numbers by refusing the easy targets.

I wonder why the nasty men at the BNP like it so much. It's a great ad for their evil brand of politics and while we continue with shit like this we are bringing closer the disaster of a BNP government.

No more controls on labour how is this "dangerous"?

Just answered that one. If you don't think it's true pop to a BNP meeting and listen to the bastards rant on about it. I did and I know how dangerous these people are.

 

[audiotech]

http://members.iinet.net.au/~migrate/information/health.html
Works for them. What's wrong with us doing the same. Would you keep the same opinion if a close member of your family got TB from a migrant ?

Information on the health and police evidence required by Australian Law. Our country has strict regulations about health for immigrants, and people with a criminal record are carefully screened.

A close member of my family could get TB from someone UK born (but unlikely). So what's the difference between the UK and Australia over the above? Very similar policies to the UK on public health.

Depends on the reason they enter the UK. Mass asylum from war torn coutries is a bad idea. Better to help end the war and make the area stable.
Political opinion is one thing but anyone who uses a gun or bomb is another.
A war zone must be a terrible place to be but we can't afford to invite all the people here.

Better not to start a war in the first place. As for "anyone with a gun or bomb"? Not likely to be welcomed with open arms. Furthermore, people fleeing persecution from war zones are not "invited", they do not have that luxury. Recent talk about withdrawal from the UN convention on refugees indicates policy becoming harsher and therefore more difficult to flee persecution.

I know many illegals here. The fact they are illegal does not mean that they are unfit to be here. In many cases I know of white anglo saxon males I would far sooner see deported than the illegals.
A while ago I looked at my mobile's memory. 20 out of 200 contacts were foreign nationals. All but 5 are illegals in the UK.
2 of the latter have just returned home to malaysia and were refused educational visas.
I say again that UK policy on this matter stinks. We allow those that are harmful to stay to keep the PC lot shut and reduce the numbers by refusing the easy targets.

I'd say it is more maladministration and incompetence, rather than policy that is at fault here.

I wonder why the nasty men at the BNP like it so much. It's a great ad for their evil brand of politics and while we continue with shit like this we are bringing closer the disaster of a BNP government.

I would say not much likelihood of a BNP government anytime soon, or ever come to that. This country's whole history is based on immigrants and immigration, so why be fearful?

Just answered that one. If you don't think it's true pop to a BNP meeting and listen to the bastards rant on about it. I did and I know how dangerous these people are.

They usually end up in the political ghetto they came from.

 

[big footed fred]

I would say not much likelihood of a BNP government anytime soon, or ever come to that. This country's whole history is based on immigrants and immigration, so why be fearful?

They usually end up in the political ghetto they came from.

Just taking this point for a moment.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5119892.stm

Be afraid mate. The situation is not the same as in the past and these people are trying to get real power. The BNP are a bunch of nutters - that much is true but it does not follow that they are thick.

They are having local meetings and using local issues that are popular to gain support. Miners memorials and so on.
They are well aware that there is a concern about mass immigration and exploit this to the full.
I was listening to some local thugs on friday night talking about going paki bashing. They had no idea what a pakistanni or an indian was and did not know what islam is. They were fired up by local racists to do these things.

A few years ago the labour party had no chance in the polls as they were led by people with nothing to get the public fired up. Micheal Foot may have been a clever chap but he had the draw of an old spud and zero chance of winning an election.

All it takes is a little more shit about open door policy, a few radical islamics doing bad things and a BNP leader with the ability of Tony to attract votes.

Don't think it can't happen - People are pissed off with what they see as a major problem. The truth is of no matter in politics. Again Tony has proven that.
I will say again that the BNP's greatest friends are the PC lefties with their silly no baa baa blacksheep crap.
I wonder if history will record how the far right infultrated the lefties to forward their cause by producing this rubbish.

 

[audiotech]

I was listening to some local thugs on friday night talking about going paki bashing. They had no idea what a pakistanni or an indian was and did not know what islam is. They were fired up by local racists to do these things.

As I said, the ghetto, which will not assist in mustering support in an electoral sense for the BNP, as most people do not like the idea of "paki-bashing" as a recruiting tool. It just shows the BNP as more inept than suggested in the article you post.

Frank Field lost the plot politically some time ago.

 

[kyser_soze]

Jesus...reading some of the posts here I'm half expecting the ghost of Enoch Powell to waft out of my monitor.

Look at 'em - coming over here and taking our jobs, with their diseases and swan eating...

 

[DownwardDog]

I think communities should decide themselves if they want immigration controls.

But how would you stop immigrants from moving to other communities once they are here? Internal passports? Pass laws?

 

[treelover]

KS , i wonder if your younger less affluent self on a council estate would have thought the same, eg no borders, etc,

 

[treelover]

btw, it seems like all neo-liberal regimes support covert immigration and therefore pools of cheap labour, Spain is just one with a nominally Socialist Gov't
which had a amnesty last year.

 

[JimPage]

all immigration controls are . an odd poll really, up here in scotland any politician even talking about immigration controls would last 5 minuites.

 

[kyser_soze]

KS , i wonder if your younger less affluent self on a council estate would have thought the same, eg no borders, etc,

Funnily enough I grew up in a household where such commentry was the norm and spent a large chunk of my adolesence unlearning much of the casual racism (and yes, of the all blacks are muggers/the germans and japs will come back at you/foreigners steal all our jobs) I was bought up with.

I dunno - there's a part of me that completely understands the BNP and why they get the support they do, and also one that understands why 'control immigration' is an easy slogan/idea to get behind but ultimately who is served by it? The kind of controls that balders is talking about wouldn't serve anyone well in the long term and for me it smacks of the kind of state control over people's lives that turns most people off socialism.

I suggested a few things at the begining of the thread - make it illegal for UK employers to use overseas agencies or active recruitment of skilled workers from certain countries or certain socially beneficial jobs (medical, teaching)...but to say that people can't decide where they want to go and work...for anyone who is opposed to the state having a say in how you can and can't live your life it's unsupportable.

What I do know is that we ain't gonna solve it by chatting on an interweb board!

 

[big footed fred]

As I said, the ghetto, which will not assist in mustering support in an electoral sense for the BNP, as most people do not like the idea of "paki-bashing" as a recruiting tool. It just shows the BNP as more inept than suggested in the article you post.

Frank Field lost the plot politically some time ago.

I'm not a fan of Frank field but he is correct in this matter at least as far as the article goes.
Don't underestimate the BNP, they are very dangerous. They are using these thickos as foot soldiers to stir up trouble. The more trouble, the more it brings race to the news, the more they can say 'niggers and pakis' are causing problems.
I can only suggest that you go to a BNP meeting (if you are white that is) and listen to them. Just play along a little and you get to hear a little of what is behind the rants and seemingly inept crap they preach.
Anyway back to the thread.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5129822.stm

Our controls are rubbish and wrong in who they allow to stay. We need tighter controls to keep bastards like this out. I don't give a shit what passport he may have I don't want a cunt like this in the country.
Without using his status as a commonwealth or irish (I don't know what is status is outside this) can you give me one good reason for allowing a man who is guilty of multipul crimes including murder to stay in the UK.

 

[tbaldwin]

The kind of controls that balders is talking about wouldn't serve anyone well in the long term and for me it smacks of the kind of state control over people's lives that turns most people off socialism.

!

Its not a long term solution a long term solution is a more equal world.But it is a short term solution to avoid making the world an even more unequal place...

I agree with you up to a point its authoritarian...And of course that worries people and puts some people off but it doesnt make it wrong...

 

[tbaldwin]

Jesus...reading some of the posts here I'm half expecting the ghost of Enoch Powell to waft out of my monitor.

Look at 'em - coming over here and taking our jobs, with their diseases and swan eating...

I dont know too much about Enoch Powell but i remember hearing that he was involved at first in getting immigrants into the UK....

 

[durruti02]

Controls on labour are not positive they are against the interests of the working class.

so workers control is er anti working class

.. i forgot .. the swp like to be in charge over the ignorent racist backward workers

 

[durruti02]

Interesting debate. But how likely , and in what timescale, is "full employment" which Durruti02 is suggesting is necessary before there is no work for skilled or unskilled immigrant labour? It is the "holy grail" of left of centre parliamentarism, but has evaded governments in Western Europe (Partly through deliberate policy and design, I know) for the last 30-40 odd years.... And the vacancies existing is one, but not the ONLY reason developing country professionals come to the UK - there are push as well as pull factors.
Why do you think "we" (and who is we?) do not train enough health professionals, Durruti02?

simply .. as it is cheaper to import pre trained immigrants ..

 

[durruti02]

Of course the other way of ensuring there are "no vacancies" for foreign labour would be a recession/depression and massive cuts in provision....

no it would just involve a bit of planning .. what needs to be built where and why .. that seems to have departed from economics in favour of boom .. in the south east at least ( and the inevitable bust )

 

[durruti02]

But how would you stop immigrants from moving to other communities once they are here? Internal passports? Pass laws?

once upon a time ( and actually not that long ago i.e. before mrs thatcher) both the state ( for right or wrong) and the unions had control over work places / labour through the closed shop etc .. workers had to be bona fide .. and in the union

if immigrants could not get work they will neither come nor wish to stay

then there is no need for internal passposts pass laws etc .( all immitive langauge of course )

immigration is not happenning for no reason but as immigrants KNOW this is a country where they are welcomed by the bosses as cheap labour