Russia mobilises - consequences and reactions

[kebabking]

If I was writing a paper on strategic defeat of Putin/Putinism, I'd agree with you - but if I was Finland, or Latvia, or Moldova, or Poland, or Georgia with their less than entirely happy experiences of an influx of large numbers of Russian men I might have a rather different answer...

For western Europeans who decry Eastern European attitudes to Russia and Russians I shall say - with delicious rapture - that you should check your (haven't been repeatedly invaded and occupied by Russia) privilege...

 

[frogwoman]

If I was writing a paper on strategic defeat of Putin/Putinism, I'd agree with you - but if I was Finland, or Latvia, or Moldova, or Poland, or Georgia with their less than entirely happy experiences of an influx of large numbers of Russian men I might have a rather different answer...

For western Europeans who decry Eastern European attitudes to Russia and Russians I shall say - with delicious rapture - that you should check your (haven't been repeatedly invaded and occupied by Russia) privilege...

Yeah, that's why I said I can understand it if it comes from countries with a recent history of being invaded by Russia. Some of the stuff from Americans on Twitter not so much

 

[Yossarian]

I hope the US and other countries assisting Ukraine are going to be smart enough to also assist countries allowing in Russian draft-dodgers, and welcome some themselves.

 

[Dystopiary]

Yeah, that's why I said I can understand it if it comes from countries with a recent history of being invaded by Russia. Some of the stuff from Americans on Twitter not so much

Absolutely. What I've seen a lot of online is, "Westerners" listening to what people carrying a lot of Russian-inflicted trauma are saying, and then trying to be supportive by being as visibly anti-Russian as possible. But it doesn't work so well saying Russians should all do X, Y and Z when you live in a Britain that supplies lethal weapons to Saudi Arabia that have killed thousands in Yemen, just to give one example, and you're not storming Downing Street. Especially given that Britain, for all its many faults, is less repressive than Russia.

I've seen Ukrainians who've been literally fighting for their lives post about their hatred of Kadyrov and his soldiers; these are people who've lost family, friends, homes, they've seen utter horror, and honestly who can blame them? But then an American upping the ante and making memes about Chechens all being goat-fuckers is just racist, maybe they don't realise it, but it is.

 

[kebabking]

Yeah, that's why I said I can understand it if it comes from countries with a recent history of being invaded by Russia. Some of the stuff from Americans on Twitter not so much

I don't think that holds up - these guys weren't queuing for 3 days on the Georgian border when Putin was openly and repeatedly talking on Ru state TV about his govts policy being the deliberate and systemic destruction of Ukraine as a polity, a culture, an identity and a language, the destruction of all independent media, and the elevation of Putin to Father of the nation.

You don't get to be a victim of fascism when you get thrown into a meat grinder if you've spent the last 6 months being perfectly happy with that meat grinder when it was pointed the other way.

People who fled Russia when it became clear it was bent on a war of subjugation and extinction, and a totalitarian domestic repression - they are political refugees. These guys? Not so much...

 

[frogwoman]

There's plenty of people who are too poor to get out though, or they've got kids and other responsibilities meaning they couldn't leave (tbf many of those people are now staying).

 

[Raheem]

I think the less people in Russia, the less people he can call up

But there are still plenty of men in Russia. A few hundred thousand fleeing isn't going to cause a supply issue. On humanitarian grounds, I'd agree that the Baltic States should be letting people in. But from a war-effort perspective, all it does is save Russia the bother of having to deal with them.

 

[frogwoman]

But there are still plenty of men in Russia. A few hundred thousand fleeing isn't going to cause a supply issue. On humanitarian grounds, I'd agree that the Baltic States should be letting people in. But from a war-effort perspective, all it does is save Russia the bother of having to deal with them.

It's draining away international prestige even among states still inclined to support them tbf

 

[Dystopiary]

Prigozhin founded and controls the mercenary Wagner Group and is a confidante of Putin.




link: Tadeusz Giczan

 

[nogojones]

I don't think that holds up - these guys weren't queuing for 3 days on the Georgian border when Putin was openly and repeatedly talking on Ru state TV about his govts policy being the deliberate and systemic destruction of Ukraine as a polity, a culture, an identity and a language, the destruction of all independent media, and the elevation of Putin to Father of the nation.

You don't get to be a victim of fascism when you get thrown into a meat grinder if you've spent the last 6 months being perfectly happy with that meat grinder when it was pointed the other way.

People who fled Russia when it became clear it was bent on a war of subjugation and extinction, and a totalitarian domestic repression - they are political refugees. These guys? Not so much...

I don't think it's that easy. It's been a slow staggering journey to where Russia is today. People flee countries only when it really gets on top or when it looks like they or their families are at immediate risk. You don't uproot your life easily.

This is the point where it boiled over for these people.

 

[teqniq]

Yup sounds like chickenhawks to me:

 

[frogwoman]

There's loads of people from inside Russia who have been opponents of the war since the start who've realised they can't bear this fascist shit any more and realise a better option is to risk crossing borders illegally rather than be called up to the front. We wouldn't say this simplistic stuff about North Korean refugees for instance

 

[TopCat]

‘I will defend the country’: while some Russians flee draft, others head to war

Men are accepting their military call-ups, with poll showing support for conflict still at 72% after mobilisation

www.theguardian.com

 

[RD2003]

In my experience, it isn't uncommon to find that Russians can stand for one thing today and another thing tomorrow. Or both things at the same time. Given their history, who can blame them? It pays to be ideologically flexible in Russia. It's much more rare than here to find people with lifelong political convictions, let alone to find them expressed openly at all times.

It wasn't uncommon to find people who were 'liberals' during Perestroika, especially during its latter stages, when it became clear which way the wind was blowing, and hardline nationalists shortly afterwards. Much of the KGB and the military didn't support the 1991 coup attempt, but it wasn't necessarily because they were 'westernising' liberals. Neither did many of those considered party hardliners. It looked like a majority of the population backed change when Yeltsin made his move, if only because it was obvious that something had to give, but a large majority still backed Putin when elections were still largely free and fair.

Just because you're fleeing the draft, it doesn't mean you're not a nationalist. And if you're not, you might be tomorrow, depending on events.

 

[RD2003]

Yup sounds like chickenhawks to me:

It wouldn't be particularly unusual here, let alone Russia, to be rabidly in favour of a war, but balk at the idea of being in the thick of it yourself.

 

[teqniq]

frogwoman Did you read the tweet and in particular the subtweet? It would appear these guys have 'actively supported the war and participated in russian propaganda' if true the term Chicken Hawks is apposite.

 

[frogwoman]

I'm not talking about those bastards, I agree. I don't think they can necessarily be taken as representative of people fleeing tho

frogwoman Did you read the tweet and in particular the subtweet? It would appear these guys have 'actively supported the war and participated in russian propaganda' if true the term Chicken Hawks is apposite.

 

[teqniq]

It wouldn't be particularly unusual here, let alone Russia, to be rabidly in favour of a war, but balk at the idea of being in the thick of it yourself.

No shit Sherlock.

 

[teqniq]

I'm not talking about those bastards, I agree

Ah ok apologies.

 

[frogwoman]

I'm talking about people who haven't been able to or wanted to leave Russia until now

 

[nogojones]

Yup sounds like chickenhawks to me:

Well fuck those two. Most people fleeing ain't been stirring the hate pot

 

[quimcunx]

If our government suddenly decided they want to recruit middle-aged short-arsed women to wrestle refugees out of dinghies and drown them in the Channel I might try to flee the country to avoid being recruited to either drown refugees or be drowned myself. Doesn't mean I was just fiiiiiine with refugees drowning up til then.

Our government has been getting increasingly cunty and unhinged. At what point do we revolt or leave?

 

[frogwoman]

Just wondering what people think people in Russia who aren't in a position to violently resist Putin should do?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Also, threat of prison is one thing. Threat of Russian prison is quite another. Anyone risking prison to resist is fucking brave.

 

[Dystopiary]

Like that young poet frogwoman posted about the other day, the poor guy. What a disgustingly cruel regime.

 

[frogwoman]

Western governments/companies have been quite willing (and some still are) to cosy up to Putin right up until today btw, there's stuff on twitter reporting tear gas and stun guns being sold from Europe even after the war started. I'll post a proper link ac soon as I can find it as I know twitter posts aren't the most popular in these parts

 

[Karl Masks]

I'm confused as to how Putin is doing this. Are these regions that are already under Russian control?

Presumably when the news tells me Kyiv is applying to join NATO they mean Ukraine (or what's left of it). Isn't that a risk of escalation? Not to disparage the intention, I just dont want to see atomic fire

 

[frogwoman]

 

[frogwoman]

I'm confused as to how Putin is doing this. Are these regions that are already under Russian control?

Presumably when the news tells me Kyiv is applying to join NATO they mean Ukraine (or what's left of it). Isn't that a risk of escalation? Not to disparage the intention, I just dont want to see atomic fire

No, not even the whole of Donetsk oblast is under entirely Russian control

 

[frogwoman]

If he uses nukes imo it'll happen regardless of if they're in NATO or not, and they can't join it straight away even under an 'accelerated process'