Rochester & Strood by-election

[gosub]

it was interesting (at least to me) Alan Johnson was on This Week, side stepped the issue, saying he had only just heard of it so couldn't comment on it but Thornberry had good working class credentials blah blah. Then the next night Have I Got News For You is shown, and Alan Johnson is on it and they cover the story. HIGNFY is recorded before This Week

 

[butchersapron]

Why is this knackered horse suddenly doing interviews and warm appearances?

 

[articul8]

Yes, i thought so, the cartoonist articul8 liked, the one whose cartoon above he thought fitted the moment rather accurately in its snobby anti w/c way, is the private school boy from surrey christian adams.

The cartoon is not at all snobby or anti w/c itis taking the piss out of a middle class politician's desperate attempt to associate himself with proletarian cliches -with predictably embarrassing results like the bacon butty.

 

[butchersapron]

The cartoon is not at all snobby or anti w/c itis taking the piss out of a middle class politician's desperate attempt to associate himself with proletarian cliches -with predictably embarrassing results like the bacon butty.

Thank you. Fantastic. You are in so much trouble. You can't see the same snobbery writ through the posh cartoonist choices of signifier.

Yeah, you really changed things in london.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm not anti-Miliband, I want him to succeed. But he fucked up here.

and here you have it. after a post like that you should admit you're no in any way interested in positive change in society, you just want it managed a bit differently.

 

[ViolentPanda]

There is nothing about a van and a flag that deserves respect automatically.

Fortunate that Miliband didn't say anything regarding giving vans and flags automatic respect, then.
His point that one should respect a person until you have a reason to not respect them is practical manners, no more, no less. To do not do so implies condescension and contempt on par with that displayed by Thornberry.

There is no need for Labour to superficially embrace markers of a tabloid version of w/c identity. Miliband is displacing his own failure to bring forward pro w/c policies onto the scapegoats of populist right wing withchunts.

How exactly does one fail at something one hasn't actually attempted?

 

[Belushi]

The cartoon is not at all snobby or anti w/c itis taking the piss out of a middle class politician's desperate attempt to associate himself with proletarian cliches -with predictably embarrassing results like the bacon butty.

Whose clichés?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Zapp- Ive never said otherwise, prick

Whereas you, you write much, but say nothing that isn't political flatus.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

The cartoon is not at all snobby or anti w/c itis taking the piss out of a middle class politician's desperate attempt to associate himself with proletarian cliches -with predictably embarrassing results like the bacon butty.

True it is attacking Miliband but it is also sneeringly anti-working class. You know it's anti those people you can recognise by the vans and the beer and the dogs and the fags and the flags.

Louis MacNeice

 

[Pickman's model]

True it is attacking Miliband but it is also sneeringly anti-working class. You know it's anti those people you can recognise by the vans and the beer and the dogs and the fags and the flags.

Louis MacNeice

yes but articul8 is a loyal labour party man. so his interest in the working class is wholly abstract.

 

[articul8]

I don't see it as promoting cliches, it is mocking Miliband's appeal to them.

 

[butchersapron]

I don't see it as promoting cliches, it is mocking Miliband's appeal to them.

Yeah,the privately schooled telegraph cartoonist was prob doing that. Any more anti-labour anti-immigrant rags you want to support/line up with?

 

[butchersapron]

I don't see it as promoting cliches, it is mocking Miliband's appeal to them.

Why can't you just not a be a fucking knob?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I don't see it as promoting cliches, it is mocking Miliband's appeal to them.

It just reasserts the cliches for comic effect; in no way does it seek to question them let alone undermine them. In doing so it shows the same sort of contempt that you spectacularly failed to recognise earlier in this thread...at least you're being consistent in some things.

Louis MacNeice

 

[ViolentPanda]

There's not much point continuing this, since it is perfectly evident that political opponents of Labour have a vested interest in misreading her tweet as some kind of snobbery, or an attack on working class people in general. Miliband has accepted that narrative, a major mistake. The hostility on here just shows how much some people have invested in it.

Your narrative misses the fact that Thornberry's supposedly-misread snobbery is being decried by Labour supporters who have no vested interest in representing Thornberry as a clueless Islingtonite twat, people who are disgusted that an MP for a party that makes claim to representing the working class, could treat a member of that class so cavalierly, and with such contempt.
As for accusing others of constructing narratives that favour their political preferences, you're doing exactly the same. The only difference is that you do it very poorly because you're a hack.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And sacking Thornberry would make you more likely to vote Labour? Can't believe there are many in that camp

That'd be because you're part of the bubble. Your politics is far removed from "the man on the street".

 

[butchersapron]

Who produced these cliches - and use of them - that you support articul8?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Spot on Zapp. And shared by my w/c mother, who was very a committed Labour activist in the 80s-early 90s, and whom feels really alienated by the party now - usually voting for them just because 'she hates the Tories so much'.

She's never been much of a fan of England flags much either, but saw Thornberry's actions as 'typical of the political class gulf that exists', and is not surprised people vote UKIP even though she's wary of their popularity. She doesn't like Ed much either but not on this particular issue

I'm not a fan of the Cross of St. George - being from the generation I am, I originally associated it more with the British Movement, than with support of the England soccer team - but I don't immediately associate it with a particular politics because what the flag signifies has evolved well beyond it being a simple marker of political nationalism. That Thornberry didn't/doesn't "get" this simply marks her as being at least as bubblicious as articul8, perhaps even more so.

 

[articul8]

I think it's fair to criticise the faux-sincerity of people who seize on the same cliches and reverse the negative evaluation.

 

[butchersapron]

I think it's fair to criticise the faux-sincerity of people who seize on the same cliches and reverse the negative evaluation.

This is why you're a hack, a liability and liar - all in one sentence.

Oh yeah, a pretentious wanker as well. A casually red.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think it's fair to criticise the faux-sincerity of people who seize on the same cliches and reverse the negative evaluation.

we criticise your faux-politics all the time. when are you going to come out with something which sounds as though there's been some thought gone into it?

reading the exchange on this thread is like seeing someone (i.e. you) getting kicked in the head again and again and again

 

[articul8]

Whatever

 

[Mr Moose]

Your narrative misses the fact that Thornberry's supposedly-misread snobbery is being decried by Labour supporters who have no vested interest in representing Thornberry as a clueless Islingtonite twat, people who are disgusted that an MP for a party that makes claim to representing the working class, could treat a member of that class so cavalierly, and with such contempt.
As for accusing others of constructing narratives that favour their political preferences, you're doing exactly the same. The only difference is that you do it very poorly because you're a hack.

Whereas Ed merely humiliated a homeless woman with his 2p without flags nor a van to her name.

Facepalm stupidity for a lawyer to put someone's home and number plate up on Twitter, but let's also not overdo it on the victim here. He had three flags up on the day the English nationalists rode to victory. It's not outside of credibility to suggest he might have been joining in as these were street facing and anything in the street is public. FTAOD Thornberry should not have done it, but the hysterical response to it was an own goal, one Ed will live to regret. Disloyalty isn't liked by anyone.

A sensible answer would have been to take the issue on truthfully. Actually, yes, we have been a divided nation. The England flag has often been a mistrusted symbol, including by people within the Labour Party who wish to include all working class people in our project. But this is wrong, we should all be proud of where we come from, which is why I have discussed the matter firmly with Emily (And implied trouser trembling bollocking). But more importantly it reminds us why we oppose UKIP who seek to make flag waving and national loyalties a devisive and destructive force once more. We do not play those games. Now fuck off.

 

[Belushi]

You're a fucking terrible PR man

(articul8 that is. not Mr Moose)

 

[Pickman's model]

Whatever

it's like you're some apolitical teenager instead of someone who professes some sort of structured political beliefs. except any apolitical teenager would be able to batter your so-called politics into submission every time here. you're like rebel warrior only in the labour party.

 

[articul8]

Go back to wanking off to pics of dead coppers

 

[butchersapron]

Whatever

Third day to get some grip - thus far you've put off someone who was thinking of rejoining labour, convinced no one of your argument, convinced people that you're either lying or an idiot and generally made a bit of a tit of yourself.

 

[Pickman's model]

Third day to get some grip - thus far you've put off someone who was thinking of rejoining labour, convinced no one of your argument, convinced people that you're either lying or an idiot and generally made a bit of a tit of yourself.

a quiet few days for him then

 

[Pickman's model]

Go back to wanking off to pics of dead coppers

you've got no politics.

 

[ska invita]

ive always respected articul8 for holding his corner on the boards, pretty much single handedly, and although i rarely agree i usually understand where he's coming from and can respect the sentiment
but on this one i just dont understand how there's room for any confusion - its an open and shut case - and amazingly his view isnt that uncommon, in as much as that there are a fair few blogs and articles out there who also dont understand the fuss to different degrees - ive found the whole thing eye opening