Rochester & Strood by-election

[stethoscope]

And sacking Thornberry would make you more likely to vote Labour? Can't believe there are many in that camp

He didn't even say that. No wonder Labour isn't coming over any more.

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

And sacking Thornberry would make you more likely to vote Labour? Can't believe there are many in that camp

And unchecked class based snobbery as a party policy would make me more likely to vote labour? At least by doing something Milliband can pretend that it was a lone view, not one they all share but aren't stupid enough to voice.

 

[butchersapron]

...and anyway, articul8, the issue here isn't miliband's reaction to her tweet - but yours. Your craven lying hacking defence of it. And if it's not that, if you do genuinely believe what you're wrote about it then that's just as bad and just as damaging - you might as well just write snobby liberal anti w/c bubble dweller on your forehead. Maybe you'll be able to see it that way - i think most of the rest of us can already.

And if you're representative of the labour-party left, the pro-w/c leftin the party, then fuck me...you are already dead.

 

[stethoscope]

How about Labour deliver some proper socialist, pro-working class, alternative policies? And then stuff like this would probably not really provoke quite so much reaction if Labour were actually saying something.

 

[killer b]

I think sacking the snob is going to make some people more likely to vote labour. more likely than they had been if he'd circled the wagons anyway. Immediate sacking was the best move he could make, under the circumstances.

 

[cesare]

How about Labour deliver some proper socialist, pro-working class, alternative policies? And then stuff like this would probably not really provoke quite so much reaction if Labour were actually saying something.

Milliband's been promising these elusive policies since the last GE. He cannot afford to publicise any policies because there'd only be a rizla between LP's and LibCon ones. They've swallowed the austerity economics position wholesale.

 

[articul8]

...and anyway, articul8, the issue here isn't miliband's reaction to her tweet - but yours. Your craven lying hacking defence of it. And if it's not that, if you do genuinely believe what you're wrote about it then that's just as bad and just as damaging - you might as well just write snobby liberal anti w/c bubble dweller on your forehead. Maybe you'll be able to see it that way - i think most of the rest of us can already.

And if you're representative of the labour-party left, the pro-w/c leftin the party, then fuck me...you are already dead.

What you find galling is that I reject and refute accusations of class snobbery that your dismissal of Labour is built around (and which Miliband has given credence to). it's not for nothing that The Sun has gone to town on this story.

 

[butchersapron]

I think sacking the snob is going to make some people more likely to vote labour. more likely than they had been if he'd circled the wagons anyway. Immediate sacking was the best move he could make, under the circumstances.

What about Thornberry though?

Coat got, out door, down street

 

[stethoscope]

Milliband's been promising these elusive policies since the last GE. He cannot afford to publicise any policies because there'd only be a rizla between LP's and LibCon ones. They've swallowed the austerity economics position wholesale.

Oh yeah, I know - I have little, if any hope for Labour any more. Was just trying to make a, frustrated, point really.

 

[butchersapron]

What you find galling is that I reject and refute accusations of class snobbery that your dismissal of Labour is built around (and which Miliband has given credence to). it's not for nothing that The Sun has gone to town on this story.

What i find hilarious is your hack defences of her snobbery and the fact that master strategist has left himself two options - 1) people laughing at you for genuinely believing it 2) people laughing at you for the transparent campbell-esque attempt at spin. Either way, they're laughing at you. The norms are ahead of you in their political reading of the original tweet and what you're up to here.

 

[butchersapron]

I don't know, maybe articul8 is right and a series of panicked defences of the tweet laying it out clear for all to see that it's right and good to judge people on the outside of their house, the size of their house, what football teams they support and what work van they drive, then following it up by calling ed miliband a clueless clown and calling people who don't agree a stalninst-fascist amalgam then ending on a note of vote labour may have been the correct response.

I'm not really convinced though.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

There's not much point continuing this, since it is perfectly evident that political opponents of Labour have a vested interest in misreading her tweet as some kind of snobbery, or an attack on working class people in general. Miliband has accepted that narrative, a major mistake. The hostility on here just shows how much some people have invested in it.

And yet many of us are saying Miliband made the right choice - it's people advocating a defence of Thornberry that could cost Labour votes.

 

[cesare]

Oh yeah, I know - I have little, if any hope for Labour any more. Was just trying to make a, frustrated, point really.

Aye

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

How about Labour deliver some proper socialist, pro-working class, alternative policies? And then stuff like this would probably not really provoke quite so much reaction if Labour were actually saying something.

It's not their job to deliver socialist policies given they're not and don't pretend to be a socialist party.

 

[butchersapron]

It's not their job to deliver socialist policies given they're not and don't pretend to be a socialist party.

Defines itself thusly:

The Labour Party is a democratic socialist party

 

[articul8]

And yet many of us are saying Miliband made the right choice - it's people advocating a defence of Thornberry that could cost Labour votes.

This was a non-story whipped up by the Sun to distract from the Tory failure. Ed fell headlong into a trap.

 

[butchersapron]

Re: your liike above articul8 - we all know it's not. It's a party with some socialists in it.

 

[butchersapron]

This was a non-story whipped up by the Sun to distract from the Tory failure. Ed fell headlong into a trap.

You really are a head in the sand type aren't you? I wonder why head office has never picked you up for the strategy dept.

 

[stethoscope]

This was a non-story whipped up by the Sun to distract from the Tory failure. Ed fell headlong into a trap.

It really wasn't. Thornberry outed herself.

 

[cesare]

"We like to think of ourselves as a democratic socialist party, in the context of right wing neoliberalism"

 

[Lo Siento.]

What you find galling is that I reject and refute accusations of class snobbery that your dismissal of Labour is built around (and which Miliband has given credence to). it's not for nothing that The Sun has gone to town on this story.

Genuinely?! You genuinely don't think that there are lots of Labour MPs who are snobs?

 

[butchersapron]

I'd like to see this refutation - maybe articul8 means rebut?

 

[stethoscope]

I'm still baffled by your earlier aligning of those us criticising Thornberry with 'blue Labour', articul8. It's so arse about face I don't where to start.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Genuinely?! You genuinely don't think that there are lots of Labour MPs who are snobs?

If they are, then they have no business in the Labour party. I wonder if it really is snobbery or just a genuine failure to even try to understand the lives of their potential voters? I think Ed & his close circle are now pretty well beyond redemption this side of the GE, I wonder if they can admit this to themselves & realise they need to push forward MPs who can talk the talk better far better than the high command & of course they need policies that can stand close scrutiny as well? Its not as if Labour is behind the Tories in the polls. Clearly the electorate do not really want Camo & his privatisations but if Labour cannot make themselves electable in the next few months then really most of us have nobody to vote for.

I find it annoying that articul8 will not engage on a solution to this & just continues to defend the indefensible.

 

[articul8]

I'm still baffled by your earlier aligning of those us criticising Thornberry with 'blue Labour', articul8. It's so arse about face I don't where to start.

Blue Labour begins from the premise that what ordinary folk are really attached to are the flag, the country, royalty, hard work, family, and a suspicion of Johnny foreigner. It then says the market undermines these traditional attachments so it's possible to argue for protecting what's popular in the eyes of Joe prole whilst at the same time speaking to fear of change in way that the neoliberal Tories no longer can. But the whole thing rests on a stereotype of what drives the working class just as much if not more so than Thornberry.

This "I see a van and think respect" stuff is far further outside most people's experience.We all make judgements positive and negative from markers of cultural identity. It's perfectly normal.

 

[gosub]

And yet many of us are saying Miliband made the right choice - it's people advocating a defence of Thornberry that could cost Labour votes.

Mr Milliband's defence of England supporting white van man isn't really resonating either

 

[Lo Siento.]

This "I see a van and think respect" stuff is far further outside most people's experience.We all make judgements positive and negative from markers of cultural identity. It's perfectly normal.

Hang on. A second ago she wasn't making a judgement, she was just innocently taking a photo

 

[articul8]

I find it annoying that articul8 will not engage on a solution to this & just continues to defend the indefensible.

I am not issuing a blanket defence of Labour - there is a whole series of failures to connect with what working class voters want. And yes for many it's because they have little connection to the way people outside their sphere lives their lives. Of course this is a major problem. But it doesn't follow that Labour proves its respect by playing up to a no less stereotyped view of what working class politics look like.

 

[articul8]

Hang on. A second ago she wasn't making a judgement, she was just innocently taking a photo

No I said it was a comment about the mood of a particular place on a particular day (not a comment on the home owner per se).

 

[butchersapron]

This "I see a van and think respect" stuff is far further outside most people's experience.We all make judgements positive and negative from markers of cultural identity. It's perfectly normal.

This didn't happen - as you've been told. Why persist in the lie? Why persist in following the anti-labour types who have suggested this has happened whilst claiming others are doing just that? You are all over the shop. In fact, you're doing exactly what they want and using their lies to do so.