Rochdale grooming trial: Nine men jailed

[ItWillNeverWork]

Would it be fair to characterise the situation like this? : Paeodophilia is a crime committed within all races and cultures, but the particular form that the crime takes often differs along cultural/societal lines. Institutional paedophilia (for example in the catholic church), or sex tourism (Garry Glitter types going to Thailand, etc) is primarily a white phenomena, whereas street-grooming gangs are primarily Asian.

Furthermore, the make-up of the victims is shaped by the cultural and social situations that are existent at the time and place. So given that the pool of vulnerable women available to this grooming gang was mostly white, white girls were disproportionately victimised as a result. Similarly, if we take paedo-tourism, the crime can be seen as being relatively powerful white men taking advantage of vulnerable Asian women in their home country.

I certainly believe that an understanding of the social and cultural dynamics is neccessary to tackle the problem, but a narrative needs to be formed in the mainstream that is balanced, non-divisive, and productive. If this narrative is not formed, then the far-right will take advantage of this issue to push their agenda.

Also, I would like to say that explanation is not the same as justification. Explanation is a good thing as it can help resolve an ongoing situation; justification amounts to moral cowardice. Sticking our heads in the sand is also not an option.

 

[Giles]

I have just seen a frightening newscast on the beeb that said the lawyers of the 9 men may be calling for a retrial as Nick Griffin of the BNP knew the result of the case before the judge did? ( Inside job?) Something to do with a tweet apparently?

Surely there would have to be some actual evidence that Nick Griffin actually knew anything at all for this inane comment to make a difference?

Otherwise anyone could ruin any trial at any time, by simply "tweeting" some completely ignorant comment that they "knew the person would be found guilty". Or not guilty. Or anything?

Giles..

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

Guardian not allowing any comments on the issue on CIF?

Is there a CIF article? The Guardian doesn't let comments on news articles

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

Interesting, hope not hates split with the uaf/swp was in large part over how to deal with the keighly grooming (the latter arguing it wasa racist conspiracy against Muslims). This is Nick lowles on the latest.
http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/...-the-silence-on-grooming#.T6qIUy9Zzvs.twitter

Good article.

Also, butchers, mind if I DM you about something you might well be able to help me with (or at least point me in the right direction?)

 

[Spymaster]

Would it be fair to characterise the situation like this? : Paeodophilia is a crime committed within all races and cultures, but the particular form that the crime takes often differs along cultural/societal lines. Institutional paedophilia (for example in the catholic church), or sex tourism (Garry Glitter typed going to Thailand, etc) is primarily a white phenomena, whereas street-grooming gangs are primarily Asian.

Furthermore, the make-up of the victims is shaped by the cultural and social situations that are existent at the time and place. So given that the pool of vulnerable women available to this grooming gang was mostly white, white girls were disproportionately victimised as a result. Similarly, if we take paedo-tourism, the crime can be seen as being relatively powerful white men taking advantage of vulnerable Asian women in their home country.

I certainly believe that an understanding of the social and cultural dynamics is neccessary to tackle the problem, but a narrative needs to be formed in the mainstream that is balanced, non-divisive, and productive. If this narrative is not formed, then the far-right will take advantage of this issue to push their agenda.

Also, I would like to say that explanation is not the same as justification. Explanation is a good thing as it can help resolve an ongoing situation; justification amounts to moral cowardice. Sticking our heads in the sand is also not an option.

Good, nicely balanced, post. Especially that (bolded) bit.

 

[The39thStep]

Would it be fair to characterise the situation like this? : Paeodophilia is a crime committed within all races and cultures, but the particular form that the crime takes often differs along cultural/societal lines. Institutional paedophilia (for example in the catholic church), or sex tourism (Garry Glitter typed going to Thailand, etc) is primarily a white phenomena, whereas street-grooming gangs are primarily Asian.

Furthermore, the make-up of the victims is shaped by the cultural and social situations that are existent at the time and place. So given that the pool of vulnerable women available to this grooming gang was mostly white, white girls were disproportionately victimised as a result. Similarly, if we take paedo-tourism, the crime can be seen as being relatively powerful white men taking advantage of vulnerable Asian women in their home country.

I certainly believe that an understanding of the social and cultural dynamics is neccessary to tackle the problem, but a narrative needs to be formed in the mainstream that is balanced, non-divisive, and productive. If this narrative is not formed, then the far-right will take advantage of this issue to push their agenda.

Also, I would like to say that explanation is not the same as justification. Explanation is a good thing as it can help resolve an ongoing situation; justification amounts to moral cowardice. Sticking our heads in the sand is also not an option.

That should go down well in Heywood

 

[butchersapron]

Good article.

Also, butchers, mind if I DM you about something you might well be able to help me with (or at least point me in the right direction?)

No worries at all, but I'm away with only a crap phone till Saturday...

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

That should go down well in Heywood

What do you suggest then?

 

[The39thStep]

What do you suggest then?

You are the one characterising not me mate

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

You are the one characterising not me mate

I've no idea what that means. What do you suggest should be the approach to debating an issue that is tied up to all sorts of cultural and social dynamics in very subtle and sensitive ways? How do you propose that this issue should be addressed in Heywood? How should the debate be framed?

 

[claphamboy]

Surely there would have to be some actual evidence that Nick Griffin actually knew anything at all ...

TBF, you didn't have to type further than that.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Stoat Boy in "I'm an utter wanker" non-shocker.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't think anyone's suggesting that it's a cultural norm, but when over 80% (83% - I just read your link) of a specific crime is perpetrated by a specific group you have to ask why. Idaho suggested poverty as a cause but none of these guys were particularly poor (shop owners, taxi bosses) though the girls they preyed on were.

I reckon it boils down to a similar set of reasons as for stuff like Kincora and other care institution/care leaver scandals - a mixture of opportunity and the fact that the perpetrators could be fairly sure the authorities would have a hard job getting a handle on it because of the various "sensitivities" around who the defendants were/are.

 

[shygirl]

I haven't read through all the pages, so apols if someone else has made the point. Who is it who grooms and recruits vulnerable young women into the porn/sex industry, because there's plenty in it? Who is it who prints images of women in school uniforms on the front covers of our trashier newspapers. Who is it that sells thongs and other inappropriate clothing for little girls. Who organises beauty pageants for little girls, in which they are dressed up like mini women and sexualised beyond belief? I haven't expressed myself terrribly well, but what I'm trying to say, like other posters have, its endemic, societal and not confined to any one particular ethnic group. A lot of it is more subtle, more pervasive and hugely detrimental to how girls and young women see themselves.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I would like to see the statistics broken down. But I believe they will show it iS pakistani asians whose origins are from the Mirpur region of Pakistan that are responsible for the majority of these grooming gang cases in the UK.

Isn't it fair to say, though, that the majority of British Pakistanis have their origins in the Mirpur region, so that the majority of groomers deriving their heritage from there would be a foregone conclusion?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think we should be primarily focusing on the culture which seems to push these girls into being vulnerable in the first place. Because lets face some facts here, if these girls came from strong family backgrounds in terms of having male relatives around then any problems are likely to be nipped in the bud pretty early on.

You really are a self-righteous sack of shit. You assume that if only these victims had come from a "strong family background", they'd have likely been okay? Their "strong family background" could have been why they ended up in care in the first place, you cock.

I dont know very much about Pakistani cultures but as somebody who is white and working class, abliet from what would no doubt be considered the upper echolons of it, I reckon this is about as much as trying to understand why my community did not do more to protect these girls in the first place.

Because social care is so massively underfunded, even for childrens' services, which get the "cream" of social care funding alongside the elderly, that protecting them is almost impossible, especially if protecting them means preventing them from doing stuff.

Why is it underfunded? Because people care more about paying less Council Tax, than about a relative handful of teenage girls having physical and mental scars for the rest of their lives, or at least aren't aware that their Council Tax staying at the same level for 3 years running translates to reduced local services even outwith "austerity" cuts.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You are being disingenious.

He's not even being disingenuous.

 

[Citizen66]

(Garry Glitter typed going to Thailand, etc)

This is interesting. I don't recall anyone saying that Gary Glitter's abuse of young brown girls was racially motivated.

 

[ViolentPanda]

CPS apparently turned this case down back in 2008 as they said one of the girls involved wasnt a "credible witness".

The strange calculus the CPS use to decide whether witnesses are credible means that at the least hundreds of abuse cases, on children, the elderly and people with learning disabilities aren't prosecuted because the case isn't an "easy win".

 

[butchersapron]

The strange calculus the CPS use to decide whether witnesses are credible means that at the least hundreds of abuse cases, on children, the elderly and people with learning disabilities aren't prosecuted because the case isn't an "easy win".

This is an astonishing thing. Its quiet but its happening.

 

[danny la rouge]

The strange calculus the CPS use to decide whether witnesses are credible means that at the least hundreds of abuse cases, on children, the elderly and people with learning disabilities aren't prosecuted because the case isn't an "easy win".

I "liked" this post, but I don't like it. It's true, though.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Cathlic priests, Jason Swift paedo ring, Kincora lest we forget.......see hopenothate blog...got it right for me

Yep, made me think of Kincora, too.

 

[ViolentPanda]

`

Would it be fair to characterise the situation like this? : Paeodophilia is a crime committed within all races and cultures, but the particular form that the crime takes often differs along cultural/societal lines. Institutional paedophilia (for example in the catholic church), or sex tourism (Garry Glitter typed going to Thailand, etc) is primarily a white phenomena, whereas street-grooming gangs are primarily Asian.

Furthermore, the make-up of the victims is shaped by the cultural and social situations that are existent at the time and place. So given that the pool of vulnerable women available to this grooming gang was mostly white, white girls were disproportionately victimised as a result. Similarly, if we take paedo-tourism, the crime can be seen as being relatively powerful white men taking advantage of vulnerable Asian women in their home country.

As far as it goes, you have a point. However, one could look at "modern" British history and point out that 150 years ago, the grooming of underage females for sex was a pursuit of the British middle- and upper-classes, and that sex with underage girls was legally permissible, so we shouldn't make any hard and fast "rules" about such things based on what is a changing and fluid social and cultural background. I'd also say that we may not have the whole story w/r/t these perverts. We don't know, and probably never will, if these men committed such crimes against members of their own communities.

I certainly believe that an understanding of the social and cultural dynamics is neccessary to tackle the problem, but a narrative needs to be formed in the mainstream that is balanced, non-divisive, and productive. If this narrative is not formed, then the far-right will take advantage of this issue to push their agenda.

They'll attempt to do that whether there's a cohesive narrative or not, but I take your point.

 

[ViolentPanda]

This is interesting. I don't recall anyone saying that Gary Glitter's abuse of young brown girls was racially motivated.

Nope, in fact while he was still able to attract and groom teenage girls over here, he didn't bother going abroad. Being able to go to Thailand just made his predatory behaviour that much more "invisible" to people in the UK.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I "liked" this post, but I don't like it. It's true, though.

Don't worry, I got why you "liked" it.
Yep, it's true and it's something very few people in the media (honourable exceptions being Private Eye and a couple of "campaigning" journos on the broadsheets). I knew kids in care in the 70s who had the same with the DPP. I remember Edie mentioning kids she knew reporting stuff, and the CPS dropping action because the kids were in care and/or substance abusers and/or had criminal records. I can also remember a scandal at a south London school for children with what was back then referred to as "mental handicaps" where members of staff were reported over and over down the years, and nothing was done. That's frankly the tip of a massive iceberg, especially as we've a bit more insight nowadays into how institutional dynamics can actually attact predatory abusers.

 

[ViolentPanda]

This is an astonishing thing. Its quiet but its happening.

A CPS drone once asked me "isn't it better that we prosecute a rape case where we've got the possibility of locking some scumbag away, rather than risk the judge throwing the case out because the victim can't follow the to and fro of cross-examination?".
This was after they'd supposedly changed a lot of the predicates in the late '90s to make it easier for "vulnerable" people to testify.

 

[Grandma Death]

Whether or not the majority are involved in cases like this is neither here nor there, Granny. Most people aren't involved in any crime at all. What's at issue is your first point vis-a-vis the culture causing this type of exploitation. And we should very much give it credence because gang-rape isn't the only manifestation of the bigotry against women prevalent in many muslim societies, it's a huge issue, this is just towards the particularly nasty end of the spectrum.

Size of the problem is a very relevant point in the debate about attitudes to women in some asian cultures. The theory is, in this debate, that there is a cultural element to that. I dont dispute that there is a debate to be had about cultural attitudes but is that a separate issue to criminality? What I'm saying if this is cultural then why arent the majority of asians involved in these activities? The danger is the lines between criminality start to become blurred with cultural issues. I dont doubt there are asians that view women along the lines of the 'virgin and whore' and there'll be some who think women are subservient-but for some reason these men took that one step further. So it may (or may not be) one end of a spectrum or it may (or not be) sheer criminality.

Accepted. And by all means feel free to expand the discussion into these areas, but this is going to be the substantive issue for a general public who are currently questioning various islamic practices for a variety of reasons, some more valid than others. An interview with one of the victims of this case (anonymously done) revealed a couple of shocking things: a) this had been going on for many years, and b) it's actually quite common, indeed a lot of the girls abused don't realise they're being abused so don't report it. So there's still plenty of this happening despite the jailing of this set of cunts.

It's not a small issue. Kids are being raped. Now if the majority of rapes of this type are being perpetrated by Pakistani muslim men because elements of their culture have led them to view white teenagers as "worthless" then I say shout it from the fucking rooftops because it has to change.

Take the issue away from the far right. Because whilst it's only them causing a fuss about it, it is playing to their agenda.

The way you take this away from the right is by flagging up the wider issues-you dont play into or feed into their agenda. To conclude. There is a debate about societal attitudes in some cultural attitudes within Islam to women. But it needs to be sensible and reasoned and not hysterical. As we are debating now within this very thread.

I also think you'll find the views of serial sexual abusers is one of their victims being worthless per se and its not unique to Pakistani offenders like this.

 

[Riklet]

How is this about Islam other than how the actions of religious adherents are framed and categorised within a cultural setting...? There is definitely an importance of asking questions about power relations and exploitation of women in xyz religion, but in this case, whilst it's awkward and definitely not what keith vaz etc want to hear, the abuse of these girls was coming from a specific social grouping and some/various cultural attitudes within it.

It's definitely not unique to Pakistani origin communities etc, far from it, but when like reported in this article about the campaigner on this issue, Mohammed Shafiq that "This gang was the talk of the town among the taxi drivers. People were appalled because it’s nothing to do with faith, nothing to do with Islam" you've got some serious conversations which aren't being had because people don't want to air dirty laundry in public etc. It seems a bit naive to pretend that this hasn't happened at times within the Pakistani origin UK community, especially when people are worried about racial tensions and the BNP/far right stirring stuff up. That's much less to do with Islam and much more to do with specific cultural contexts though. Hrmm it's late I don't feel i'm explaining myself very well tbh.

 

[biggus dickus]

Would it be fair to characterise the situation like this? : Paeodophilia is a crime committed within all races and cultures, but the particular form that the crime takes often differs along cultural/societal lines. Institutional paedophilia (for example in the catholic church), or sex tourism (Garry Glitter typed going to Thailand, etc) is primarily a white phenomena, whereas street-grooming gangs are primarily Asian.

That is a load of rubbish. Has it not occured to you that you only know about white people committing these crimes because of what you see on the news. Even within the Catholic church paedophilia is also practiced by Africans, similarly the sex tourists in south Asia are not all white

 

[bignose1]

BBC news now referring to these men as the Rochdale 9.....made me shiver...those that know me and Ayatollah will understand....