Rochdale grooming trial: Nine men jailed

[Grandma Death]

I would like to see the statistics broken down. But I believe they will show it iS pakistani asians whose origins are from the Mirpur region of Pakistan that are responsible for the majority of these grooming gang cases in the UK.

Yeah but we're also talking about young british born pakistani men who may not even share the same cultural attutudes of some of their elders. Do you see what Im getting at. When you start talking about cultural attitudes it opens up a whole can of worms with so many variables. Also in the northern towns where there are pakistanis of mirpur descent the majority arent going out and involved in grooming.

 

[danny la rouge]

Im not suggesting you are-Im saying that any discussions around culture can/tend to fall back on norms. Of course within the Islamic community there are attitudes to women that are questionable-but even then, some who think or hold these beliefs dont go on to be part of sexual exploitation rings. I just think its dodgy territory to start talking about cultural attitudes because its a sticky wicket and can feed into right wing agendas.

I'm not so sure. Leave aside the race and culture of the convicted men in this case, and look at violence against women as a wider issue.

Here's some quotes from a couple of well-known books on violence against women:

Many men in Western society learn to expect that their wishes and concerns come first, that because they are males and heads of households they have certain preogatives and rights that supersede those of women.

[...]

When a man attacks his wife he is either chastising her for challenging his authority or for failing to live up to his expectations, or attempting to discourage future unacceptable behaviour.

(Dobash & Dobash, 1980, "Violence Against Wives")

"If lynching is the ultimate racist act, rape is the ultimate sexist act. It is an act of physical and psychic oppression. [...] Like lynching, it is cowardly, and like lynching it is used to keep individual women, as well as women as a caste, in their place. And finally, as with lynching, the rape victim is blamed for provocation.

[...]

Eradicating rape requires getting rid of the power discrepancy between men and women, because abuse of power flows from unequal power".

(Russell, 1975, "The Politics of Rape").

Now, that is not to say that all men are rapists, even ones holding sexist views. It does say (and I agree) that where rape and violence occurs, it flows from social inequalities. Rape, violence against women, child abuse, are an extreme manifestation of a far wider societal attitude.

Turning back to cultures associated with Islam, where attitudes towards women can rightly be questioned, does it not follow that there might be a minority who are the extreme manifestation of those attitudes. Abuse of power flows from unequal power.

That is not to say all Muslims are child abusers, just as the above is not to say that all men are rapists.

 

[London_Calling]

FFS, of course it's predominantly rural Pakistanis and Afghanis.

I suspect people are having trouble grasping the complete absence of women in many of there mens lives, how childlike they are, and how intoxicated they can become by contact with western women, or girls.

 

[manny-p]

Yeah but we're also talking about young british born pakistani men who may not even share the same cultural attutudes of some of their elders. Do you see what Im getting at. When you start talking about cultural attitudes it opens up a whole can of worms with so many variables. Also in the northern towns where there are pakistanis of mirpur descent the majority arent going out and involved in grooming.

Exactly and many of the British born men and women will have inherited some of the backward as fuck views from their parents who come from that region. This is a pretty obvious conclusion one would think.

 

[Grandma Death]

Turning back to cultures associated with Islam, where attitudes towards women can rightly be questioned, does it not follow that there might be a minority who are the extreme manifestation of those attitudes. Abuse of power flows from unequal power.

Which is why said yes it is up for debate. But discussions around culture as Ive mentioned tend to fall back on norms/stereotypes. There's flip side to that debate though because clearly the majority of those with questionable attitudes to women dont go on to commmitt deplorable crimes like this.
So at that point it has to be asked is there any need to even get embroiled in a debate about culture-in fact it could be hugely counterproductive in my opinion. How would such a debate have helped these girls or future victims of exploitation?

 

[Grandma Death]

Exactly and many of the British born men and women will have inherited some of the backward as fuck views from their parents who come from that region. This is a pretty obvious conclusion one would think.

So there is no one culture or attitude we can attribute to all asian men in northern towns-already you and I have discussed a few cultural variables. Men from mirpur-second generation asians-some who would share/or not those cultural attitudes to women etc

 

[Grandma Death]

Just to add theres also a gang mentality about this. Leaders who pull others in and they follow. Thats reflected in the sentences too. In fact there are so many factors to consider why these men committed these crimes-cultural attitudes wouldve only been a part of it.

 

[Spymaster]

So at that point it has to be asked is there any need to even get embroiled in a debate about culture-in fact it could be hugely counterproductive in my opinion.

Surely debating the aspects of any culture that leads to crime, and condemning those aspects (in this case the views of some muslims towards white women, indeed women in general) is necessary if those aspects are to change?

We discuss and condemn every other manifestation of bigotry for all sorts of reasons, why not this one?

 

[danny la rouge]

Which is why said yes it is up for debate. But discussions around culture as Ive mentioned tend to fall back on norms/stereotypes. There's flip side to that debate though because clearly the majority of those with questionable attitudes to women dont go on to commmitt deplorable crimes like this.
So at that point it has to be asked is there any need to even get embroiled in a debate about culture-in fact it could be hugely counterproductive in my opinion. How would such a debate have helped these girls or future victims of exploitation?

The debate needs to take place within the Muslim community. The debate needs to be about the role of women. In order to have helped these girls, it would need to have taken place a long time ago. In order to help current and future girls and women, it needs to take place now.

We have a choice. We can leave this to the far right, in which case we can be assured that stereotypes will be employed. Or we can ask the right questions the right way.

 

[Grandma Death]

We discuss and condemn every other manifestation of bigotry for all sorts of reasons, why not this one?

Im not suggesting we shouldnt fella...did ya miss that

 

[manny-p]

The debate needs to take place within the Muslim community. The debate needs to be about the role of women. In order to have helped these girls, it would need to have taken place a long time ago. In order to help current and future girls and women, it needs to take place now.

We have a choice. We can leave this to the far right, in which case we can be assured that stereotypes will be employed. Or we can ask the right questions the right way.

The 'muslim community'. LOL

 

[Spymaster]

Im not suggesting we shouldnt fella...did ya miss that

... is there any need to even get embroiled in a debate about culture ...

 

[Spymaster]

The debate needs to take place within the Muslim community. The debate needs to be about the role of women. In order to have helped these girls, it would need to have taken place a long time ago. In order to help current and future girls and women, it needs to take place now.

We have a choice. We can leave this to the far right, in which case we can be assured that stereotypes will be employed. Or we can ask the right questions the right way.

Good post.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

The debate needs to take place within the Muslim community. The debate needs to be about the role of women. In order to have helped these girls, it would need to have taken place a long time ago. In order to help current and future girls and women, it needs to take place now.

.

And what do you propose we do until the 'Muslim community' has had this debate and arrived at the same conclusons as you?

 

[Grandma Death]

The debate needs to take place within the Muslim community. The debate needs to be about the role of women. In order to have helped these girls, it would need to have taken place a long time ago. In order to help current and future girls and women, it needs to take place now.

We have a choice. We can leave this to the far right, in which case we can be assured that stereotypes will be employed. Or we can ask the right questions the right way.

The danger with your argument here is that the focus is on the islamic community rather than society at large. These girls were in this situation for years-that is a societal failing.

 

[Spymaster]

And what do you propose we do until the 'Muslim community' has had this debate ....

Encourage them to do so?

There are plenty of muslim's who accept and condemn this aspect of their culture.

 

[Stoat Boy]

I see this as being primarily a cultural issue with race only really coming into play in terms of the wider societal pressures and so on but its those pressues which could be seen as a hinderance to actually dealing with the perps along with preventing action being taken so that kids are not in such a vulnerable position.

Lets be honest in terms of victims these girls seem to come from the very lowest of socio-economic groups. I admit that they are probably not kids I would encourage my own children to befriend or similar and so I am more than willing to put my hands up and say that I am as guilty as anybody in terms of rejecting (not sure if its the correct term) these children in a way that must add to their collective vulnerability.

 

[Grandma Death]

I think its up for discussion- but seeing as the majority of pakistani men would never dream of behaving in this manner it would be wrong to suggest this was a cultural norm.

Theres a difference between saying there should be NO discussion and saying we shouldnt get embroiled in a debate about culture.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Encourage them to do so?

There are plenty of muslim's who accept and condemn this aspect of their culture.

And how would you encourage 'the Muslim Community' to have this debate?

I agree that there are plenty who do but that's not the point being made. Danny is suggesting that we leave this to the 'Community' to sort out.

 

[Spymaster]

The danger with your argument here is that the focus is on the islamic community rather than society at large. These girls were in this situation for years-that is a societal failing.

But there are two issues here. One concerns the society that allows the girls to fall into that situation, the other concerns a society whose attitudes to women seems to lead to some of their members being overly represented in gang-rape statistics.

 

[London_Calling]

Theres a difference between saying there should be NO discussion and saying we shouldnt get embroiled in a debate about culture.

The debate should about the nature and extent of economic migrancy from regions of the world entirely incompatible with western culture of the later 20th and 21st century.

This is not a problem suffered by Africans - Muslim or Christian, or East Europeans or, generally speaking, even from elsewhere in Asia. It's a problem imported from regions of the world where females very clearly remain property.

Also, as a general rule, these men aren't even here to settle. They want to minicab long enough to buy a property at home and attract a wife - through her male relatives. They make little investment in this society, save a car and a GPS.

 

[danny la rouge]

The 'muslim community'. LOL

It was short hand. But that aside, what was wrong with my post?

 

[danny la rouge]

Danny is suggesting that we leave this to the 'Community' to sort out.

Where?

 

[Spymaster]

And how would you encourage 'the Muslim Community' to have this debate?

I agree that there are plenty who do but that's not the point being made.

By discussing it openly and treating it as a problem, by supporting those muslim's like Mohammed Shaffique who present it as an issue, and by not failing to confront the issue for fear of "feeding into the right-wing agenda".

Danny is suggesting that we leave this to the 'Community' to sort out.

No. He said that they need to debate it.

 

[danny la rouge]

The danger with your argument here is that the focus is on the islamic community rather than society at large. These girls were in this situation for years-that is a societal failing.

I refer you back to my post 32, where I explicitly say this is a problem for society at large.

 

[manny-p]

It was short hand. But that aside, what was wrong with my post?

No I am saying that the 'muslim community' does not exist. There are shit loads of different communities that are muslim.

Apart from that your post was bang on.

 

[Stoat Boy]

I think we should be primarily focusing on the culture which seems to push these girls into being vulnerable in the first place. Because lets face some facts here, if these girls came from strong family backgrounds in terms of having male relatives around then any problems are likely to be nipped in the bud pretty early on.

I dont know very much about Pakistani cultures but as somebody who is white and working class, abliet from what would no doubt be considered the upper echolons of it, I reckon this is about as much as trying to understand why my community did not do more to protect these girls in the first place.

 

[dylanredefined]

There is a racial element ,but,the bigger element is men being bastards to vulnerable girls.

 

[Reno]

I think we should be primarily focusing on the culture which seems to push these girls into being vulnerable in the first place. Because lets face some facts here, if these girls came from strong family backgrounds in terms of having male relatives around then any problems are likely to be nipped in the bud pretty early on.

I dont know very much about Pakistani cultures but as somebody who is white and working class, abliet from what would no doubt be considered the upper echolons of it, I reckon this is about as much as trying to understand why my community did not do more to protect these girls in the first place.

So it's the girls fault ?

 

[Grandma Death]

But there are two issues here. One concerns the society that allows the girls to fall into that situation, the other concerns a society whose attitudes to women seems to lead to some of their members being overly represented in gang-rape statistics.

Theres a difference between causation and correlation. The patchy statistics would suggest theres a correlation between asian gangs in northern towns and grooming of young vulnerable girls. We can agree on that. So are societal attitudes to women within some of these cultures the cause of such exploitation-thats the debate? Now Im saying it can be debated-but we shouldnt lend to much credence to it or get too embroiled in it. Because across these cultures there will be varying degrees of attitudes to women-and even those that are questionable-the majority wont be involved in cases like this.

Also there are many other factors to consider when you look at the components of this crime coming together. Issues of power. The girls being in this position in the first place. Failure of the care system (and the police in this case)...the list goes on and on. So yes cultural attitudes may well play a part-its just how much time does one give to such a debate when there are so many other issues to consider and not just two spymaster.