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Rochdale grooming trial: Nine men jailed

There probably are specific cultural reasons which influence the chosen MO, but they are very unlikely to turn a man into a sexual predator when he wouldn't otherwise have been. Misogyny is not unique to Pakistani men, and neither are rape and trafficking.

Most of this group's crimes would have been prevented had the first victim to report it been listened to. How in hell has this become all about race with so few asking why in hell it took four years from the first complaint made about them for it to come to trial? Double-plus win for the racist misogynist tendency. :rolleyes:

Not sure it has to be either/or, mutually exclusive propositions.
 
Griffin is one hell of an opportunist , can't remember him coming out with placards when all those bedroom loners got caught with the kiddie porn and explosives, now what party did THEY support again?
 
Not sure it has to be either/or, mutually exclusive propositions.
I think it is important not to allow discussion of certain types of behaviour that permeate all cultures to be side-lined by allowing it to be dismissed as something associated with a particular culture. It's monsters that do that, not normal men. It's a product of a monstrous culture, not something that is to be found in all cultures. It's just an excuse not to look at the whole picture.

I think that's actively damaging. In a world where this can get published in a mainstream magazine for white blokes:

danny-206x300.jpg


Trying to pretend that there is something uniquely awful about the way Pakistani men view and treat women is insulting. The big story here is that it took four years for the victims' complaints to be investigated, by an institutionally racist police force which is not usually so slow to try and pin something on black and brown people. Move along now. No misogyny to see here.
 
Trying to pretend that there is something uniquely awful about the way Pakistani men view and treat women is insulting.

When even their own community leaders are saying there's a problem, pretending there isn't is ridiculous and unhelpful.
 
And in this context the rise of near ubiquitous internet porn must have something to do with it? .
I think one should be very cautious about assuming that this is either a new problem or a problem that is getting worse. Rubbish attitudes long predate internet porn. Yes, there is a lot of very crude, crap media around at the moment, but there's a lot more of every kind of media around. There never was a more enlightened past from which we are descending.
 
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I noted that in my very first sentence on this thread:

There probably are specific cultural reasons which influence the chosen MO...

Which seesm to suggest that these cultural reasons inlfluenced only the MO, as opposed to being a causal factor in the crime being committed in the first place? Not good enough, if so....
 
I think that's actively damaging. In a world where this can get published in a mainstream magazine for white blokes:

danny-206x300.jpg

It's clearly a joke, a fucking sick & shit joke IMO, but to describe Zoo, with a circulation of just over 50k, as a 'mainstream magazine for white blokes' is taking the piss, more a niche publication for twats TBH.
 
misogyny does cut across cultures but it is particularly present in the Pakistani community - not only in the prevalence of general attitudes but also in the severity of those attitudes. gang culture in London is indeed another example where there is a pocket of society with extremely misogynistic attitudes, but that is within a sub-culture of youth not spread across an entire inter-generational community.

but it isn't even specifically the 'ideas' which the community fosters which make it a particular issue, it's the organised nature of it. the communities themselves are often very close knit, tightly controlled by a patriarchal clique of blokes who make all the community decisions chatting outside the Mosque (where the women are banned from entering). they have eachothers' backs, and cover up for eachother when anything dubious occurs. it's that relationship which makes the cultural attitudes particularly dangerous.
 
Um, slight difference between blokes watching their mates' backs over a weekend fling than watching their mates' backs over child sexual abuse.
 
So why is it "insulting" to suggest that there's a culturally ingrained degree of misogyny among many Pakistani men, particularly towards western women?

Why would a misogynist hate one group of women more than another group of women? The reason they seem to have been preying on white girls was that they were the most vulnerable to being abused.
 
Why would a misogynist hate one group of women more than another group of women? The reason they seem to have been preying on white girls was that they were the most vulnerable to being abused.
Pretty much. But, there is a certain tendency within Islam to split the world into Muslims and non-Muslims. Perhaps that was also a factor in allowing them to fail to empathise with their victims.
 
Again not sure how unique that is. Like the stag night motto "what happens on tour stays on tour".
Nobody is saying misogyny or abuse are unique to Asian cultures. Nor is anyone saying the close-knit aspects referred to here are unique. You need step away from your angst on this. It is not racist to criticise aspects of a culture. There is nothing inherent, congenital, or genetic about culture.

There are cultural aspects to this case that I'm sure you can see. One is that the girls abused appear to have been from a different culture to the men. (In this and some other high visibility cases, although not in all cases where an abuser is Asian). Abusers abuse youngsters who are available. And if you're "grooming" girls on the street in takeaways and so on at night, the girls who might be more likely to be about are possibly non Asian girls. If that turns out to be a factor, then that's very definitely cultural.

Another factor, I'm afraid, is the attitudes to women often associated with Muslim cultures. Yes, there's misogyny elsewhere. Does that need to be said? And no, Islam need not be misogynistic (although the expression of it does tend to be). But what happens is that attitudes towards women that are actually derived from patriarchal cultures (which happen also to be Muslim) are assumed by those in the culture to be derived from Islam. Tradition and religion are mixed up. People then assume that God wants women to be second class, because they always have been. (Just as the CofE can be split over whether God wants women priests). That does not mean all Muslim Asians are rapists and child-abusers. Just as in fact all patriarchal misogynists are not. But it's that general mismatch of power that leads to abuse of power in some cases. Again, nobody is saying this is unique.

I also note that many of the men sentenced in Rochdale are unbearded. The stories also refer to drinking. And of course to sexual intercourse outside marriage. These are clearly not devout Muslim men. (In fact I think I'm right in saying that not all were even nominally Muslim. At least one was not). The point is that the cultural norms about women that these men imbibed played a role. Of course that is true of other cultures. But refusing to see the role culture played in this case is being wilfully dishonest. And that can play into some very dangerous hands.

Another culture that needs to be addressed, of course, is why the authorities were so unwilling to believe witness testimony.
 
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