Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
And everyone else will think you're being somewhat mysterious
Rochdale grooming trial: Nine men jailed
- Thread starter Stoat Boy
- Start date
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
What ever the message is about 'cultural factors' and 'narrative' its got to be put across in an area, Heywood where there were several hundred on the streets earlier in the year in late February, shops damaged , police pelted with missiles and arrests made, where when people are calling cabs they were asking for white drivers, where trade in the kebab shops and some of the taxi firms where the defendants and a wider suspected group worked went down by 80% due to boycotts and parents were pulling their kids out of schools.
There have been a whole number of far right flash demos and protests in the borough and outside the courts in Liverpool. The BNP were quite shrewd and framed the issue on the failure of the Council to safeguard young white girls . Any failure of the CPS/Police etc will in future not be used by the left as an example of incompetence but by the right as proof that there has been a cover up.
The new Council and Police responsibilities under child sexual exploitation and violence against women and girls will uncover more.There will be more cases to come, one in Stockport has already been announced.
There have been a whole number of far right flash demos and protests in the borough and outside the courts in Liverpool. The BNP were quite shrewd and framed the issue on the failure of the Council to safeguard young white girls . Any failure of the CPS/Police etc will in future not be used by the left as an example of incompetence but by the right as proof that there has been a cover up.
The new Council and Police responsibilities under child sexual exploitation and violence against women and girls will uncover more.There will be more cases to come, one in Stockport has already been announced.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I think BigNose makes a reference to the Rochdale 9 in No Retreat
Barking_Mad said:
Bolded bit from Barking_Mad is the right version a far as I read it too, and I agree with VP.
The CPS got it very badly wrong, and I should think questions need to be asked of the Police too, but there was at least a hint earlier -- from treelover I think --that 'cultural sensitivities' or some such 'PC gone mad' blah was principally what lay behind the CPS's failure. Which is a bit of an agenda laden twist in it IMO.
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
Sorry for that...When we were arrested Dec 80(fuck me thats way back) a support committee was set up...'The Rochdale 9 Defence Campaign...a few months later it was reduced to 8 as one of the number thought he could go it alone.(Didnt work ..he got the same) Coincidentally one of the defence barristers in the trial at Liverpool was a solicitor for us.
Just wanted to say as well that I liked the general thrust of that hopenothate blog that butchers linked to earlier, also, the post top of previous page from ItWillNeverWork was good ... fair few other posts from Grandma Death, Spymaster and others that I could have 'liked' as well ... will continue to follow this thread.
Far better level of discussion on this thred than I was getting at work yesterday on this subject anyway!
If ever there's a big story that you half-despair in advance of going into work just after hearing, it's one like this. Not that that's the most important nor even particularly important at all, just personal to me, but you get my point.
Far better level of discussion on this thred than I was getting at work yesterday on this subject anyway!
If ever there's a big story that you half-despair in advance of going into work just after hearing, it's one like this. Not that that's the most important nor even particularly important at all, just personal to me, but you get my point.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Do you remember that odd time, when you were playing and I was managing The Junction, and we had an away game somewhere and you went for a scout round the shops and found that book with a reference to the trial in it?
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I think that's right, which is why in my earlier post I took the emphasis away from these particular offenders to look at violence towards women in general. It's about attitudes towards women, and, ultimately, power. However, we do have to superimpose the particular cultural aspects of this case back onto the picture if we want to see what's actually happening here and whether it might happen again. It is that question that many people seem to flinch away from. I think largely because of the way the discourse on race has been conducted in our society in the last decade and more; there is a conflation between race and culture. To be absolutely clear: there is no racial explanation for the way these men acted, but there might be a cultural one.
What are you on about? Do you mean this article? There's twenty plus pages of comment following, and I don't think they're closed at all ...
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
I do 39 and it was called 'All our Tommorows'..by Ted Allbeury...every time as a bit of a gimmick when I was out shopping I'd go into any nearby 2nd hand bookshop, which I do frequently and if I came across a copy of it I buy it...Ive got 12 now....kinda silly I know. The other thing is although there are several 2nd hand copies of NR on Amazon Ive never spotted one in a 2nd hand bookshop/charity shop/car boot et al. Was told that when that happens youve made it...well thats bollox Im sure....remind me 39 were we simultaneously The Junction and Red Lion Vets...??
No it is not as simple as that. British Pakistani's come from different parts of Pakistan, so rather than just say of Pakistani origin. I wanted to be more specific than that. Mirpur is one of the most backward parts of Pakistan, so it is worth mentioning.
Most of the Mirpur folk settled in the Midlands and North of England. Whilst the Pakistanis in London come from all sorts of areas of Pakistan. This makes me think it is more a Mirpuri issue as there are less 'Pakistani gang grooming cases' in London and the South-correct me if I am wrong young chap.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
<looks about> Have I arrived at the wrong reunion?
while this is a good analysis, one could ask if there have been cases of asian male gangs grooming young asian women, I know there are many caveats, such young women are more protected by the wider family/community, etc, but it still could happen, so has it been?..
So you think men who run prostitution rings should stick to their own ethnic groups.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I wouldn't say "all sorts of areas". We've got Punjabis, Mirpuris and Sindhi, mostly.
The only sensible reply to that is "I hope you're right, but as yet we don't know".
Been a long time since I was called that (by anyone except Sasaferato, anyway).
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
As I said earlier in the thread, there may well be such cases, but the dynamics of some communities (Pakistani or otherwise, Muslim or otherwise) means that it's very difficult to find out if abuse takes place within them.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
There's also a level of contempt for the lifestyle of western women among some Asians which is also likely to be a factor in them primarily targeting white girls.
Mohammed Shaffique said:
http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/...-the-silence-on-grooming#.T6qIUy9Zzvs.twitter
There's also a level of contempt for the lifestyle of western women among some white men which is also likely to be a factor in them primarily targeting white girls.
Look at the case of Ched Evans and his white gang who plied a teenage woman with drink then took her to a hotel to be raped and filmed.
Look at the level of hatred directed at the victim online.
Where is the cultural difference?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
In its depth, though it's getting better. Many young Asian lads (not just muslims, and I'm ashamed to include some of my own family here) are encouraged to "have fun" with English girls before settling down and marrying a "decent" Asian girl. English girls are seen as easy.
It's very common and often the cause of much heartache.
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
Brilliant post. I agree with your last sentence especially. It goes back to what I've been saying. Cultural attitudes may have played a part but as I've already pointed out, there is no one singular culture in Islam that can be applied to all of Islam by then giving to much weight to the cultural debate we are in danger of missing some other substantive issues and also inadvertently aligning ourselves with the rights crass assumptions about Islam.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
Culture is a very slippery concept - and each of us operates in multiple cultural contexts (culture of the workplace, family roles, religious observance or absence of etc.) I'm not at all sure that saying "It's not race it's culture" gets us very far - especially given the right's tendency to equate Pakistani and Muslim as though though both were an expression of a single cultural type.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
It's not just the right that does that. Multiculturalism does that. That's its purpose.
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
the defendents in this case come from all walks of life within the community, many of them well respected. from the numbers reported by the girls in their testimonies, it would also appear that far more men were involved than those charged here. this is a large and influential section of the Pakistani community in Rochdale, actively involved in this ring.
i have a bit of experience with the Pakistani community in the North West, and trying to be fair minded as i can about this i can't help but be continually appalled by their "culture". amongst young Pakistani men there is an incredible amount of machismo, bigotry and intolerance - in particular relating to 'Western sluts'. this is also not a minority phenomenon, white girls are seen as fair game for any treatment and lower than animals. i can't comment in too great a detail about the lives of women within the Pakistani community (they're not often let out) other than to say that honour killings are very real and more prevalent than many would imagine. we can only draw our own conclusions from that.
certainly, these are also communities which are capable of keeping secrets. anybody with any election experience in North West towns and the Muslim communities there can probably give some insight into the undercurrent corruption which is prevalent (and usually supported and semi-organised by the local Labour Party).
i hope it's a generational thing and that new blood will see the world differently, and Western decadence will undermine religious disciplines and community structures. but i don't know. i think it's an impossible situation regarding keeping a lid on race relations in the North West. sometimes going around Burnley i genuinely cannot imagine how the open wounds there can heal. there was an interesting documentary on Radio 4 about a year ago about the multicultural schools which were set up in Burnley to counter-act the segregation there. brand new flagship buildings with state of the art equipment were introduced and the schools tried to recruit equally from all ethnic backgrounds. an orchestrated bullying campaign by the Pakistani boys against the white children in the schools (which was tacitly supported by their parents and communities) lead to a flight of white children from schools in Burnley town, and now the white kids are by and large catered for in poorly equipped and overcrowded 60s pre-fab builds around the outskirts, whilst the new buildings cater almost solely to children from the Pakistani community.
after working for several years on projects intended to increase community cohesion i am genuinely at a loss as to how to deal with these problems.
i have a bit of experience with the Pakistani community in the North West, and trying to be fair minded as i can about this i can't help but be continually appalled by their "culture". amongst young Pakistani men there is an incredible amount of machismo, bigotry and intolerance - in particular relating to 'Western sluts'. this is also not a minority phenomenon, white girls are seen as fair game for any treatment and lower than animals. i can't comment in too great a detail about the lives of women within the Pakistani community (they're not often let out) other than to say that honour killings are very real and more prevalent than many would imagine. we can only draw our own conclusions from that.
certainly, these are also communities which are capable of keeping secrets. anybody with any election experience in North West towns and the Muslim communities there can probably give some insight into the undercurrent corruption which is prevalent (and usually supported and semi-organised by the local Labour Party).
i hope it's a generational thing and that new blood will see the world differently, and Western decadence will undermine religious disciplines and community structures. but i don't know. i think it's an impossible situation regarding keeping a lid on race relations in the North West. sometimes going around Burnley i genuinely cannot imagine how the open wounds there can heal. there was an interesting documentary on Radio 4 about a year ago about the multicultural schools which were set up in Burnley to counter-act the segregation there. brand new flagship buildings with state of the art equipment were introduced and the schools tried to recruit equally from all ethnic backgrounds. an orchestrated bullying campaign by the Pakistani boys against the white children in the schools (which was tacitly supported by their parents and communities) lead to a flight of white children from schools in Burnley town, and now the white kids are by and large catered for in poorly equipped and overcrowded 60s pre-fab builds around the outskirts, whilst the new buildings cater almost solely to children from the Pakistani community.
after working for several years on projects intended to increase community cohesion i am genuinely at a loss as to how to deal with these problems.
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
i should clarify that obviously the white community is not blameless, but they aren't organised and don't act homogeneously in the same way
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
There probably are specific cultural reasons which influence the chosen MO, but they are very unlikely to turn a man into a sexual predator when he wouldn't otherwise have been. Misogyny is not unique to Pakistani men, and neither are rape and trafficking.
Most of this group's crimes would have been prevented had the first victim to report it been listened to. How in hell has this become all about race with so few asking why in hell it took four years from the first complaint made about them for it to come to trial? Double-plus win for the racist misogynist tendency.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
But is it so unlike (often white) groups of professional footballers getting involved in gang rapes, or black gangs in London? It has at least as much to do with the values of young men and how they see women. And in this context the rise of near ubiquitous internet porn must have something to do with it? Which isn't to say that we shouldn't look at the particular ways this expresses itself in certain sections of Pakistani youth (though you need to be careful not to allocate it to "the (sic) Pakistani community", still less muslim men in general. Any more than paedo priests is a problem for "the white community" as a whole to deal with.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
Is there a source for the SWP conspiracy theory?
past caring
The Cathars were right
What proportion of the white community is observant/identifies itself as practising Catholic?
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