Rochdale grooming trial: Nine men jailed

[danny la rouge]

Because they're paedophiles?

Because they're easier targets?

Technically, these men weren't convicted of paedophile acts, as far as I'm aware. The victims were not pre-pubescent. (Correct me if I'm wrong).

Not being picky. I think accuracy is important, if we're going to do this properly.

 

[Spymaster]

Not being picky. I think accuracy is important, if we're going to do this properly.

Yep, fair enough.

 

[danny la rouge]

more hebephiles than paedophiles, i'd say. but a rape gang's a rape gang in anyone's books.

Ah, you got there first. Well picked up.

 

[articul8]

Yes. But also what such cases have in common, including what they have in common in terms of devaluation of victims and culture of covering up

 

[danny la rouge]

Danny, I'm not seeking to dismiss the specific cultural background of those involved in the Rochdale case. I don't think we disagree much so far as I can tell. What I'm saying though is that what differentiates this instance of grooming from other types of group predatory sexual behaviour by men isn't necessarily more important than what they share in common.

It boils down to the same, in that an imbalance of power leads to the power being abused. But the specific circumstances that allow that to happen will differ. But just as the Catholic church needs to properly address what has happened there (with a minority of priests), so do the Asian communities these cases come from. Vague generalities won't address the issues.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes. But also what such cases have in common, including what they have in common in terms of devaluation of victims and culture of covering up

Yeah. I don't think you could do such a thing without first dehumanising your victim, tbh. Necessary precondition.

But again, that begs a question: What led these men to dehumanise their victims, specifically.

 

[danny la rouge]

Yes. But also what such cases have in common, including what they have in common in terms of devaluation of victims and culture of covering up

Yes. But we can't use that as a reason to be vague and squeamish. Unless we want the circumstances to be repeated.

 

[danny la rouge]

But again, that begs a question: What led these men to dehumanise their victims, specifically.

And shying away from that last word helps nobody.

 

[Grandma Death]

But refusing to see the role culture played in this case is being wilfully dishonest. And that can play into some very dangerous hands.

Essentially what we are talking about here is a theory. That theory is that possibly-the cultural attitudes to women that exist within some sections of those that believe in Islam may have played a part in this behaviour.

Maybe they were just a bunch of cunts and this was criminality and exploitation-nothing more nothing less.

This debate seems to be revolving around Islam-the rights and wrongs, attitudes, misogyny etc. Has anyone considered these may be separate issues to the the actual criminal behaviour of this gang?

Nobody in this debate can unequivocally say that there is one single cultural trait that can be applied to all muslims. For me this is why getting embroiled in a debate about cultural attitudes when discussing this crime can just end out in a never ending debate that achieves very little except possibly reinforce stereotypes about Islam's attitude to women. Equally that can also play into some very dangerous hands as well.

Maybe the debate should be shifting to societal failures in this case? Because for me that is more important than anything else. How these poor girls found themselves in this position in the first place and what couldve been done to prevent it happening in the first place.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Maybe the debate should be shifting to societal failures in this case? Because for me that is more important than anything else. How these poor girls found themselves in this position in the first place and what couldve been done to prevent it happening in the first place.

That is a very important issue. However, that these girls were vulnerable and had clearly been let down by society - us! - in no way means that you shouldn't look at the perpetrators too.

 

[articul8]

I think though that the devaluation of women is part of an increasingly accessible and generalised culture in terms of spread of global porn industry in influencing young men. I don't doubt that certain cultures have specific issues, but there is hardly any point in western male cultures with a healthy view of women

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think though that the devaluation of women is part of an increasingly accessible and generalised culture in terms of spread of global porn industry in influencing young men.

I doubt this. I really do. The Benny Hill show is no longer on tv. The Sunday Sport is no longer in business. Awful attitudes towards women are nothing new, and in many areas of our society they are better now than they were.

There's a danger of the 'things were better in my day' trap here. I don't think they were. The culture of men on the pull referring to women as 'it', for instance, was around when I was young - alive and kicking, and I absolutely loathed it, as did a lot of my contemporaries, even where they didn't feel able to say so at the time.

 

[Das Uberdog]

porn style 'lad' misogyny is a universe apart from the quite commonplace attitudes within the North West Pakistani community

 

[mentalchik]

There's a danger of the 'things were better in my day' trap here. I don't think they were. The culture of men on the pull referring to women as 'it', for instance, was around when I was young - alive and kicking, and I absolutely loathed it, as did a lot of my contemporaries, even where they didn't feel able to say so at the time.

I was a teenager in the 70's and was targeted by certain lads at school because i had big knockers.......was followed home and groped etc..........

things have changed in some ways but a long way to go in others

 

[littlebabyjesus]

...

things have changed in some ways but a long way to go in others

Yes, definitely. What I doubt is that things are getting worse. That smacks of a moral panic to me.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah. I don't think you could do such a thing without first dehumanising your victim, tbh. Necessary precondition.

But again, that begs a question: What led these men to dehumanise their victims, specifically.

i don't see why it's a necessary precondition.

 

[Grandma Death]

That is a very important issue. However, that these girls were vulnerable and had clearly been let down by society - us! - in no way means that you shouldn't look at the perpetrators too.

Of course I agree and I dont for one minute think we shouldnt look at these men and how they managed to get away with it for so long and what their motives were. Im just cautious at laying the blame/responsibility/analysis etc at the door of Islam-because those who practice/believe in Islam arent one big homogeneous group that all share the same attitude towards women.

 

[Das Uberdog]

i wouldn't lay it on the door of Islam, i'd lay it at the door of the Pakistani community

 

[Pickman's model]

Of course I agree and I dont for one minute think we shouldnt look at these men and how they managed to get away with it for so long and what their motives were. Im just cautious at laying the blame/responsibility/analysis etc at the door of Islam-because those who practice/believe in Islam arent one big homogeneous group that all share the same attitude towards women.

not least because quite a few of them are in fact women themselves

 

[Das Uberdog]

i wouldn't lay it on the door of Islam, i'd lay it at the door of the Pakistani community

further to this, the North West Pakistani community

 

[Pickman's model]

i wouldn't lay it on the door of Islam, i'd lay it at the door of the Pakistani community

so iyo everyone in this 'pakistani community' has questions to answer

 

[Das Uberdog]

so iyo everyone in this 'pakistani community' has questions to answer

obviously not, but the community itself is an organisational entity and as such it does have questions to answer

 

[Pickman's model]

further to this, the North West Pakistani community

round peshawar then?

 

[Grandma Death]

not least because quite a few of them are in fact women themselves

Excellent point

 

[Pickman's model]

obviously not, but the community itself is an organisational entity and as such it does have questions to answer

at the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, a community as a whole is composed of individuals. you have said that not everyone in the community has questions to answer, so who does and who doesn't?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

i wouldn't lay it on the door of Islam, i'd lay it at the door of the Pakistani community

Even those within the Pakistani community who abhor what these men did?

Isn't that a bit like a black person laying blame for the BNP at the door of white people - 'sort it out, white people, ffs'.

Whatever the answer to all these questions, doesn't the ultimate answer have to be that we sort it out together?

 

[Grandma Death]

obviously not, but the community itself is an organisational entity and as such it does have questions to answer

Maybe so-but the question is do they need to be answering questions on this specific case of exploitation-thats what we're debating.

 

[Pickman's model]

Even those within the Pakistani community who abhor what these men did?

Isn't that a bit like a black person laying blame for the BNP at the door of white people - 'sort it out, white people, ffs'.

Whatever the answer to all these questions, doesn't the ultimate answer have to be that we sort it out together?

yeh, i'm not sure i'd leave it to das uberdog to deal with.

 

[Das Uberdog]

as incredibly clever as your riposte is Pickman's, it still recklessly refuses to acknowledge that significant and respected sections of the Rochdale Pakistani community have colluded in this crime

 

[Pickman's model]

as incredibly clever as your riposte is Pickman's, it still recklessly refuses to acknowledge that significant and respected sections of the Rochdale Pakistani community have colluded in this crime

so now 'the rochdale pakistani community' seems, iyo, to be the same as 'the north west pakistani community'. i ask again, which sections of the community do you feel have questions to answer and which don't?