Rochdale grooming trial: Nine men jailed

[Das Uberdog]

Even those within the Pakistani community who abhor what these men did?

Isn't that a bit like a black person laying blame for the BNP at the door of white people - 'sort it out, white people, ffs'.

Whatever the answer to all these questions, doesn't the ultimate answer have to be that we sort it out together?

as noted previously on this thread, significant and indeed respected elements of this community have colluded together in this specific case. it is a close-knit and tightly woven community, and this is certainly not the only example of such abuse (the Guardian reported figures of well over 50% of grooming cases being related specifically to the Pakistani community).

Pakistani communities do exist in quite a tangible form all over the North West, they're not just abstract ideas. they have structures and hierarchies and leaders. yes the community needs to answer for itself just as the Catholic church has had to answer for itself

 

[Pickman's model]

as noted previously on this thread, significant and indeed respected elements of this community have colluded together in this specific case. it is a close-knit and tightly woven community, and this is certainly not the only example of such abuse (the Guardian reported figures of well over 50% of grooming cases being related specifically to the Pakistani community).

Pakistani communities do exist in quite a tangible form all over the North West, they're not just abstract ideas. they have structures and hierarchies and leaders. yes the community needs to answer for itself just as the Catholic church has had to answer for itself

a minute ago there was a north west pakistani community, now you're saying that there are a number of pakistani communities 'all over the north west'. make your mind up.

 

[Grandma Death]

as noted previously on this thread, significant and indeed respected elements of this community have colluded together in this specific case. it is a close-knit and tightly woven community, and this is certainly not the only example of such abuse (the Guardian reported figures of well over 50% of grooming cases being related specifically to the Pakistani community).

Pakistani communities do exist in quite a tangible form all over the North West, they're not just abstract ideas. they have structures and hierarchies and leaders. yes the community needs to answer for itself just as the Catholic church has had to answer for itself

No no...individuals within the catholic church have to answer for themself. Not the entire catholic church.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Pakistani communities do exist in quite a tangible form all over the North West, they're not just abstract ideas.

Yes, this is true enough. And I agree that they need to take a long, hard look at themselves. But in conjunction with everyone else, not in isolation from them. For me, that is a key point. No doubt this case is being used by those who wish to attack 'multiculturalism'. The way to defend such a thing is to show that it is possible to share values across a whole society, and to speak up - all of us - about what we think these values should be, because I don't think this is something that ought to be imposed from above, it is something that should be rising from below.

 

[Das Uberdog]

No no...individuals within the catholic church have to answer for themself. Not the entire catholic church.

i completely disagree, it was the Catholic church as an entire entity which allowed for the abuse to be concealed

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No no...individuals within the catholic church have to answer for themself. Not the entire catholic church.

Ah, but the leaders of the catholic church need to look at themselves. Specifically the leaders, right up to, and especially, the Pope.

 

[Pickman's model]

as noted previously on this thread, significant and indeed respected elements of this community have colluded together in this specific case. it is a close-knit and tightly woven community, and this is certainly not the only example of such abuse (the Guardian reported figures of well over 50% of grooming cases being related specifically to the Pakistani community).

Pakistani communities do exist in quite a tangible form all over the North West, they're not just abstract ideas. they have structures and hierarchies and leaders. yes the community needs to answer for itself just as the Catholic church has had to answer for itself

there are lies, damned lies and statistics. can you produce a link to this guardian statistic you talk about?

 

[Pickman's model]

i completely disagree, it was the Catholic church as an entire entity which allowed for the abuse to be concealed

now, about those sections of the pakistani community which you feel shouldn't have to answer questions, it would be good if you could elaborate on that.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

i completely disagree, it was the Catholic church as an entire entity which allowed for the abuse to be concealed

I agree with you on this point - it was an institutional failure. In the same way, the Met police are institutionally racist and need to look at themselves too.

It's more difficult applying this to the Pakistani communities of northern England. tbh I don't know enough about what it is to live in one to comment too much, other than that if you, a white (or black for that matter) man, walk down certain streets in certain cities holding hands with an Asian girl, she will have abuse thrown at her by Asian men.

 

[Grandma Death]

i completely disagree, it was the Catholic church as an entire entity which allowed for the abuse to be concealed

I'd disagree. There were individuals (some very high up) who were aware this was going on. Equally there were individuals that were not aware of the actions of some priests. So its correct to say the entire catholic church were not involved in the cover up. Equally the communities you speak of (which seem to be shifting from post to post) are not entirely responsible for the actions of this gang-or any other gang for that matter.

 

[Pickman's model]

i completely disagree, it was the Catholic church as an entire entity which allowed for the abuse to be concealed

so the members of the church who reported it to eg cardinal brady many years ago iyo bear as much responsibility as any other member of the church; what you seem to be saying is that everyone associated with the church should bear a portion of the blame.

 

[Grandma Death]

now, about those sections of the pakistani community which you feel shouldn't have to answer questions, it would be good if you could elaborate on that.

I'd be interested to see a response too.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

so the members of the church who reported it to eg cardinal brady many years ago iyo bear as much responsibility as any other member of the church; what you seem to be saying is that everyone associated with the church should bear a portion of the blame.

As much? No. But I would say that they need to look at themselves nonetheless. Have they been promoting an institution that facilitated this, and if so, how? That is also a question that I think can be fairly levelled at anyone who sets himself (and it will be himself - why is that?) up as a 'community leader' within Pakistani communities in northern England.

 

[Pickman's model]

As much? No. But I would say that they need to look at themselves nonetheless. Have they been promoting an institution that facilitated this, and if so, how? That is also a question that I think can be fairly levelled at anyone who sets himself (and it will be himself - why is that?) up as a 'community leader' within Pakistani communities in northern England.

i appreciate your reply, but i would like to see das uberdog outline how s/he sees blame or responsibility being shared out among catholics.

 

[Das Uberdog]

why are you obsessing over people answering questions? i said 'answer for itself' - i'd be both surprised and happy if the best thing that came of that was a completely internal purging and internal condemnation by community leaders of these kind of elements

 

[Pickman's model]

why are you obsessing over people answering questions? i said 'answer for itself' - i'd be both surprised and happy if the best thing that came of that was a completely internal purging and internal condemnation by community leaders of these kind of elements

what form do you envisage this purging would take?

 

[Das Uberdog]

complete and utter social isolation

 

[Pickman's model]

so iyo everyone in this 'pakistani community' has questions to answer

obviously not, but the community itself is an organisational entity and as such it does have questions to answer

how do you think a community can answer questions when some of its members, in your view, don't have questions to answer and you don't want it, the community, to answer the questions on an individual basis?

 

[Pickman's model]

complete and utter social isolation

that's not purging. purging traditionally involves camps and killings.

 

[Das Uberdog]

you're tying yourself up in your own terminological questions. the community exists in a real sense, it can therefore act accordingly to challenge the attitudes which prevail within itself

 

[Pickman's model]

you're tying yourself up in your own terminological questions. the community exists in a real sense, it can therefore act accordingly to challenge the attitudes which prevail within itself

you said in post 262 that some sections of the community obviously didn't have questions to answer. which sections are these?

i don't give a flying fuck about 'challenging the attitudes which prevail within itself' until we've dealt with this question and answer session.

 

[Das Uberdog]

btw,

'We believe that there are two main profiles of the on-street groomer. First, we have the white offenders, who typically offend alone. So far, nothing new: the lone white male is the norm for UK child sex offences. Second, however, there are Asian offenders, many of whom are of Pakistani origin. They seem much more likely to offend in groups, lending their abuse a curiously social dimension. In our research, which focuses on large offending groups, we analysed police data from five major on-street grooming investigations. Of the 52 suspects charged, 83% were Asian Pakistani, 11% Asian other and 6% white British'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...gangs-on-street-grooming?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

 

[Das Uberdog]

you said in post 262 that some sections of the community obviously didn't have questions to answer. which sections are these?

i don't give a flying fuck about 'challenging the attitudes which prevail within itself' until we've dealt with this question and answer session.

well fuck you then, it's your own issue not mine

 

[Pickman's model]

btw,

'We believe that there are two main profiles of the on-street groomer. First, we have the white offenders, who typically offend alone. So far, nothing new: the lone white male is the norm for UK child sex offences. Second, however, there are Asian offenders, many of whom are of Pakistani origin. They seem much more likely to offend in groups, lending their abuse a curiously social dimension. In our research, which focuses on large offending groups, we analysed police data from five major on-street grooming investigations. Of the 52 suspects charged, 83% were Asian Pakistani, 11% Asian other and 6% white British'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...gangs-on-street-grooming?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

i see no 50%

 

[Das Uberdog]

no you see 83%, i said well over 50%

 

[Pickman's model]

well fuck you then, it's your own issue not mine

who'd be asking these questions you'd like asking?

 

[Das Uberdog]

your confusing yourself by trying to put words in my mouth, 'asking questions' is actually nothing to do with anything i said

 

[Pickman's model]

no you see 83%, i said well over 50%

you said 'grooming cases'; this doesn't relate to all grooming cases as the quote makes clear. so your stat from earlier's meaningless.

 

[Das Uberdog]

it was a sample taken from a study

 

[Pickman's model]

your confusing yourself by trying to put words in my mouth, 'asking questions' is actually nothing to do with anything i said

if people are answering questions, as you'd like them to, then someone has to ask them, questions don't form themselves you know.