Rochdale grooming trial: Nine men jailed

[ViolentPanda]

you're tying yourself up in your own terminological questions. the community exists in a real sense, it can therefore act accordingly to challenge the attitudes which prevail within itself

Because that's so common, isn't it?
Even supposedly-pragmatic political organisations find themselves unable to do what you require, so what makes you think that an ethnic sub-community can do so? Because you say they can and must?
You seem to have little grasp of organisational dynamics, Ubie, so I'll explain: Communities are rarely democratic entities, they're prey to the "he who shouts loudest" factor. That's as much the case here on Urban as it is anywhere else. If you add to that the "advantaged" position that some (mainly self-selected, it can't be over-emphasised) "community leaders" and "spokesmen" have in their communities, then often the "grassroots membership" of the community feel extraordinarily disempowered, even when the role of these "community leaders" is traditional to their culture.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Young Pakistani men don't look at porn? Really? Of course they don't think "their" women are like that...

Because obviously, even if they did look at porn (which they don't, apparently!), they wouldn't notice any of the reams (oo'err) of porn featuring South Asian women, and even if they did, those bitches are Hindu, right?

 

[ViolentPanda]

This must be code. MI5 have got no chance.

To be fair, that's generally the case with MI5 whether code is involved or not.

 

[danny la rouge]

Starkey has finally gone completely bonkers by suggesting that the Rochdale sex ring is the Pakistani "cultural norm".

Don't know if he's been misquoted because the other quotes seem to suggest that he's talking about oppressive treatment of women rather than sex gangs.

But does his broader point (that many Pakistani males simply aren't educated into treating women decently and that issues of feminism and emancipation should be incorporated into English history lessons) have any merit?

It's best not to take Starkey seriously at all. It just encourages him. Even if - by sheer fluke - some tiny part of what he might say might accidentally look like it has some merit, it really doesn't; he's just a tit.

 

[Joe Reilly]

But is it so unlike (often white) groups of professional footballers getting involved in gang rapes, or black gangs in London? It has at least as much to do with the values of young men and how they see women. And in this context the rise of near ubiquitous internet porn must have something to do with it? Which isn't to say that we shouldn't look at the particular ways this expresses itself in certain sections of Pakistani youth (though you need to be careful not to allocate it to "the (sic) Pakistani community", still less muslim men in general. Any more than paedo priests is a problem for "the white community" as a whole to deal with.

How many 'white' footballers have been convicted of gang rape? How many white footballers have been convicted of the gang rape of children? How many 'white' footballers have been convicted of running prostitution rings?

As for the gang rape by black gangs, this too is under-reported, and as with the embarassment caused by the Rochdale 8 many on the left would prefer it left like that. There was for instance genuine fury when I raised the issue in the context of the riots and the mentality of some of the rioters.

However, to draw a parallel between the gangs and the Rochdale affair or the upcoming one in Oxford, where 13 Muslim men are already charged is to miss a crucial point. The black gangs are by their nature involved in all sorts of criminality, drugs, murder and so on.

As such they are already outside the law on a host of other issues. Gang rape is an adjunct to a visibly outlaw life.

By contrast the Muslim groomers are ostensibly respectable small businessmen who exploit pre-existing social networks within the Muslim community to pursue their objectives which does indicate a wide degree of tolerance and acquiesence in regard to what they are doing in that community.

 

[danny la rouge]

Interesting article in the Independent, of all places: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/asian-grooming-why-we-need-to-talk-about-sex-7734712.html

 

[Ole]

I would like to emphasise that I'm not trying to diminish the primacy of the victims' concerns first, but I can't help but think how disastrous this is for race relations. There's no doubt in my mind that this crime was fuelled by racism. And regardless of what some white guilt merchants think, I reckon most whites can make that out too.

But it's almost certainly a confluence of factors that leads to crimes like this - I don't know if anyone's made this point already, but for instance the race relations in the north have aggravated racism on both sides for a long time.. which is why I think it's less likely this would happen in the south.. (has it happened in the south before?)

 

[rover07]

No, prostitution is virtually unheard of south of Watford.

In fact, prostitution never existed in the North either until thousands of Pakistanis swarmed into the country.

 

[_angel_]

I would like to emphasise that I'm not trying to diminish the primacy of the victims' concerns first, but I can't help but think how disastrous this is for race relations. There's no doubt in my mind that this crime was fuelled by racism. And regardless of what some white guilt merchants think, I reckon most whites can make that out too.

But it's almost certainly a confluence of factors that leads to crimes like this - I don't know if anyone's made this point already, but for instance the race relations in the north have aggravated racism on both sides for a long time.. which is why I think it's less likely this would happen in the south.. (has it happened in the south before?)

London merely leads the way in racially motivated murders.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Interesting article in the Independent, of all places: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/asian-grooming-why-we-need-to-talk-about-sex-7734712.html

Yep, very interesting. And it stresses the important point that this really is a problem with a particular kind of extremely socially conservative Kashmiri culture. I would add, though, that sexually repressive cultures of all kinds contribute towards this kind of thing. As with Catholic priests, suppressing sexual urges doesn't make them disappear, but simply sees them being expressed in dysfunctional ways.

 

[Ole]

I'm talking about Asian on white 'rape gangs', "rover", not prostitution.. The girls weren't prostitutes, you dull bastard.

"_angel_" - are those Asian/white racially motivated murders, and are they relative figures? If so, how much more common are they in London than in the Midlands & the North? Can I see the source for that? Not that I'm willing to concede the point that racial tension in the North isn't worse than in the South based on that alone, but that would be a start, ta.

 

[treelover]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned it but these issues were flagged up as long ago as 2004 in the now seminal documentary: Edge of the City' which featured Anne Cryer, I seem to recall UAF lobbied against it being shown...

 

[bignose1]

How many 'white' footballers have been convicted of gang rape? How many white footballers have been convicted of the gang rape of children? How many 'white' footballers have been convicted of running prostitution rings?

As for the gang rape by black gangs, this too is under-reported, and as with the embarassment caused by the Rochdale 8 many on the left would prefer it left like that. There was for instance genuine fury when I raised the issue in the context of the riots and the mentality of some of the rioters.

However, to draw a parallel between the gangs and the Rochdale affair or the upcoming one in Oxford, where 13 Muslim men are already charged is to miss a crucial point. The black gangs are by their nature involved in all sorts of criminality, drugs, murder and so on.

As such they are already outside the law on a host of other issues. Gang rape is an adjunct to a visibly outlaw life.

By contrast the Muslim groomers are ostensibly respectable small businessmen who exploit pre-existing social networks within the Muslim community to pursue their objectives which does indicate a wide degree of tolerance and acquiesence in regard to what they are doing in that community.

 

[Grandma Death]

First of all, I've said Islam need not be misogynistic. You're generalising where I'm actually not. But your more substantive point is that the criminal behaviour might be separate. From what, though? From misogyny? From abuse of power?

Separate from cultural attitudes to women that exists in some sections of the Islamic communities.

 

[ymu]

Of course I agree and I dont for one minute think we shouldnt look at these men and how they managed to get away with it for so long and what their motives were. Im just cautious at laying the blame/responsibility/analysis etc at the door of Islam-because those who practice/believe in Islam arent one big homogeneous group that all share the same attitude towards women.

That's the thing though, isn't it. These men were allowed to get away with it for so long because the police effectively reinforced their attitude that these girls were worthless.

I don't really care whether they are picking up vulnerable girls hanging out at a kebab shop or spiking drinks in a night club. Whatever the cultural context, predatory men are told, over and over again, that what they are doing is fine, the police won't investigate, it's a trivial matter and very unlikely to be taken seriously let alone prosecuted.

The actions of these men were not condoned by the 'Pakistani community', but they were allowed to continue by the inaction of the police and CPS. Let's have a fucking furore about that for a change, please.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The actions of these men were not condoned by the 'Pakistani community', but they were allowed to continue by the inaction of the police and CPS. Let's have a fucking furore about that for a change, please.

It isn't either/or. Lots of people have pointed out the failure of the police in this case. Maybe the emphasis isn't quite right, but these men's cultural formation is also relevant here.

Tbh, this is something that is understressed in other situations, I think - for instance, in the Stephen Lawrence debacle, a great deal of stress was rightly put on the failure of the police, but very little stress was put on the place the racist cunts who killed him came from and the racist attitudes their formation had left them with. Maybe a bit more should have been said about that.

 

[danny la rouge]

Separate from cultural attitudes to women that exists in some sections of the Islamic communities.

Well, that takes us back to my post on page 2. Take a step back from these particular men, and ask yourself whether rapists, whether the act of rape, can be separated from the misogyny of the rapist. I suggest not. While not all sexists and misogynists are rapists, all rapists are sexists and misogynists. They are the extreme manifestation of the attitudes towards women that they have learned.

Yes, society as a whole needs to tackle those issues. Just as society as a whole needs to address its attitudes towards children. But in this case specifically the police and the CPS need to address their attitudes towards children that were at the root of their failings here. And the communities within which these men learned their attitudes towards women have to address those attitudes.

 

[danny la rouge]

Incidentally, where's Stoat Boy? Ever since the first day he said he didn't think anyone would want to have this conversation, it looks like he hasn't wanted to have this conversation.

 

[butchersapron]

This is worth a read and a think about:

Ultra-Orthodox Shun Their Own for Reporting Child Sexual Abuse

“There is no nice way of saying it,” Mrs. Engelman said. “Our community protects molesters. Other than that, we are wonderful.”

Their communities, headed by dynastic leaders called rebbes, strive to preserve their centuries-old customs by resisting the contaminating influences of the outside world. While some ultra-Orthodox rabbis now argue that a child molester should be reported to the police, others strictly adhere to an ancient prohibition against mesirah, the turning in of a Jew to non-Jewish authorities, and consider publicly airing allegations against fellow Jews to be chillul Hashem, a desecration of God’s name.

There are more mundane factors, too. Some ultra-Orthodox Jews want to keep abuse allegations quiet to protect the reputation of the community, and the family of the accused. And rabbinical authorities, eager to maintain control, worry that inviting outside scrutiny could erode their power, said Samuel Heilman, a professor of Jewish studies at Queens College.

“They are more afraid of the outside world than the deviants within their own community,” Dr. Heilman said. “The deviants threaten individuals here or there, but the outside world threatens everyone and the entire structure of their world.”

 

[danny la rouge]

Interesting article.

 

[articul8]

Yes, interesting. It suggests something quite deep in the way religious minorities with histories or ongoing fears of victimisation will seek to protect their reputation as a community and that this kind of knee-jerk reaction assists unscupulous people in a position of power over vulnerable individuals.

Also makes you wonder to what extent these cases are bound up with patriarchal power relations and ideas of sexuality as sinful that are shared across the Abrahamic faiths.

 

[treelover]

That's the thing though, isn't it. These men were allowed to get away with it for so long because the police effectively reinforced their attitude that these girls were worthless.

I don't really care whether they are picking up vulnerable girls hanging out at a kebab shop or spiking drinks in a night club. Whatever the cultural context, predatory men are told, over and over again, that what they are doing is fine, the police won't investigate, it's a trivial matter and very unlikely to be taken seriously let alone prosecuted.

The actions of these men were not condoned by the 'Pakistani community', but they were allowed to continue by the inaction of the police and CPS. Let's have a fucking furore about that for a change, please.

How on earth do you know it wasn't 'condoned' by sections of this 'community'? there are many anecdotal stories coming out that at the very least their co workers on the taxis, fast food outlets were aware, some indeed condoning or turning a blind eye. of course it is part of a wider abusive culture towards young girls with no power or support, but these attempts to minimise the role of elements of some closed communities with arcane religious strictures doesn't help..

 

[goldenecitrone]

It isn't either/or. Lots of people have pointed out the failure of the police in this case. Maybe the emphasis isn't quite right, but these men's cultural formation is also relevant here.

It sounds like a similar cultural formation to that of western men who travel to south-east asia to have sex with young girls.

 

[treelover]

Of course, but this 'whataboutery' won't help these girls in Northern 'Mill Towns' there has to be a robust enquiry into the nature of this abuse, any specifics, and of course the role of the authoritities in relation to not acting earlier possibly because of 'cultural sensibilities'

 

[Badgers]

So a second case in Rochdale?

 

[goldenecitrone]

Of course, but this 'whataboutery' won't help these girls in Northern 'Mill Towns' there has to be a robust enquiry into the nature of this abuse, any specifics, and of course the role of the authoritities in relation to not acting earlier possibly because of 'cultural sensibilities'

Couldn't agree more. The law should come down heavily on anyone aiding and abetting these scumbags.

 

[treelover]

So a second case in Rochdale?

Oxford too, bit of a media embargo on the trial but could be very big...

can't find anything about your second case online, source?

 

[Badgers]

Oxford too, bit of a media embargo on the trial but could be very big...

Oh dear

can't find anything about your second case online, source?

Just heard it on the radio this morning but there is a mention on the BBC website now

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-18045244

 

[butchersapron]

There's the MEN story.

 

[_angel_]

How on earth do you know it wasn't 'condoned' by sections of this 'community'? there are many anecdotal stories coming out that at the very least their co workers on the taxis, fast food outlets were aware, some indeed condoning or turning a blind eye. of course it is part of a wider abusive culture towards young girls with no power or support, but these attempts to minimise the role of elements of some closed communities with arcane religious strictures doesn't help..

You do know that now some twat is going to post "the plural of anecdote is not data".