Rochdale grooming trial: Nine men jailed

[Corax]

Did I see yesterday that they've been bailed?

And isn't that frankly a bit mental if they want them to make trial?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I dont disagree with what your saying. What Im saying is misogony may, in this case, have little or nothing to do with their cultural attitudes to women.

To me, you seem to be making an artificial distinction between "institutional" misogyny, i.e. misogyny born of social structures and strictures, and socialised into a section of a culture, and individual instrumentalist misogyny, where someone is misogynistic because it is advantageous (socially, politically, financially etc) for them to be so. I'd contend that these people are most definitely "institutional" misogynists, and also instrumental misogynists, the former fueling the latter.

 

[The39thStep]

Did I see yesterday that they've been bailed?

And isn't that frankly a bit mental if they want them to make trial?

weren't those on trial in Liverpool on bail as well?

 

[danny la rouge]

"The racial ethnicity of the men involved in the sexual exploitation of children in Greater Manchester cannot be ignored, the chair of the Equalities and Human Rights Commission has said." BBC

What is "racial ethnicity"?

The race of the men is not the issue. Not even slightly.

 

[butchersapron]

I'd like to see what Phillips actually said. Anyone know what show this was on? The politics show this morning?

 

[danny la rouge]

I'd like to see what Phillips actually said. Anyone know what show this was on? The politics show this morning?

Andrew Marr Show, apparently: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18049654




The phrase "racial ethnicity" appears to be one entirely of the reporter's own making.

 

[purenarcotic]

I'd like to see what Phillips actually said. Anyone know what show this was on? The politics show this morning?

He was on Andrew Marr's show. http://www.politicshome.com/uk/story/26704/

 

[butchersapron]

Ta both.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes, astonishing summation by the BBC reporter.

 

[Joe Reilly]

Hmmm. Thing is, let's at least have some consistency. So, for instance, where a black boy is murdered by a group of racist white thugs, we ask where these thugs came from and where their racist attitudes came from. What is it about where they grew up that left them with the attitudes they have?

Were you saying the same thing when Stephen Lawrence was murdered, for instance?

Your finger-pointing response is precisely the kind of damaging liberal reflex I was talking about.

But, to answer your question, yes I was.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Your finger-pointing response is precisely the kind of damaging liberal reflex I was talking about.

But, to answer your question, yes I was.

Ok. Fair dos. I stand by what I said about tone, though.

 

[malatesta32]

weren't those on trial in Liverpool on bail as well?

steps, they were which allowed the fecken eejits in liverpool to try and attack them and their laywers, 2 of the latter resigning and setting the trial back. morons.

 

[ymu]

That's Sheffield United fans though. They have their very own paranoid, twisted, bitter culture born of years of inferiority.

Well, precisely. Whenever these cases happen, there's some special reason why the men behaved as they did. They're spoilt rich footballers, or backward rural Muslims, or some other kind of special monster that normal men aren't.

I do realise you were joking, but it's pretty fucking offensive to dismiss 'rape culture' like that. As if it is somehow an unusual response, and these attitudes aren't at all reflected in everyday culture and there are no issues with the attitudes of the police to women who report assault, and no history of them allowing predatory rapists to continue simply because they don't believe any crime has been committed.

The reason I am having a problem with the way this is being made into an argument about a specific culture is that it leads us into a racist, misogynist cul-de-sac. These men did not behave the way they did because they found themselves in a position to abuse vulnerable women, they did it because they were Pakistani. No more thought required.

Men from different cultures and backgrounds come into contact with vulnerable women in different circumstances. Young Pakistani men working long hours in a kebab shop are more likely to meet vulnerable young women hanging out there late at night, celebrities are more likely to have groupies delivering themselves, and men who go out clubbing more likely to find drunk women to take advantage of (and will probably be doing their best to make sure they get drunk).

This is the kind of shit some men do when given the opportunity, and they won't be prevented from doing it until and unless the police start taking complaints seriously, and the rest of society makes it 100% clear that violent, misogynistic 'humour' is not acceptable, no matter how 'normal' and non-rapey the bloke making the 'joke' assumes he is.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well, precisely. Whenever these cases happen, there's some special reason why the men behaved as they did. They're spoilt rich footballers, or backward rural Muslims, or some other kind of special monster that normal men aren't.

I do realise you were joking, but it's pretty fucking offensive to dismiss 'rape culture' like that. As if it is somehow an unusual response, and these attitudes aren't at all reflected in everyday culture and there are no issues with the attitudes of the police to women who report assault, and no history of them allowing predatory rapists to continue simply because they don't believe any crime has been committed.

The reason I am having a problem with the way this is being made into an argument about a specific culture is that it leads us into a racist, misogynist cul-de-sac. These men did not behave the way they did because they found themselves in a position to abuse vulnerable women, they did it because they were Pakistani. No more thought required.

Men from different cultures and backgrounds come into contact with vulnerable women in different circumstances. Young Pakistani men working long hours in a kebab shop are more likely to meet vulnerable young women hanging out there late at night, celebrities are more likely to have groupies delivering themselves, and men who go out clubbing more likely to find drunk women to take advantage of (and will probably be doing their best to make sure they get drunk).

This is the kind of shit some men do when given the opportunity, and they won't be prevented from doing it until and unless the police start taking complaints seriously, and the rest of society makes it 100% clear that violent, misogynistic 'humour' is not acceptable, no matter how 'normal' and non-rapey the bloke making the 'joke' assumes he is.

i think it's a bit much to expect the police to be any better than the rest of society, when the past 183 years in this country (and since 1685 in paris) shows the police are not to be trusted.

the culture in the police force is one of the greatest obstacles to getting rape convictions. and it's unlikely to change when you have at least one police officer in operation sapphire making up a load of auld shite to resolve reported crime.

 

[ymu]

i think it's a bit much to expect the police to be any better than the rest of society, when the past 183 years in this country (and since 1685 in paris) shows the police are not to be trusted.

the culture in the police force is one of the greatest obstacles to getting rape convictions. and it's unlikely to change when you have at least one police officer in operation sapphire making up a load of auld shite to resolve reported crime.

It's a bit much to expect the police to be any better than the rest of society, but we still can give those Pakistani's hell for not being any better than the rest of us.

I'm not saying that you are arguing this, but it is my point about this whole racist diversionary tactic. Unless it can be shown that men from conservative Muslim communities are disproportionately responsible for sexual crime, then trying to address it by examining their culture in isolation does nothing but promote racist attitudes whilst letting misogyny in society as a whole off the hook completely.

 

[butchersapron]

I can think of other ways to investigate. You are drowning.
What ways?

You and nick griffin paddling in a pool.

 

[ymu]

You don't think there is any reason to start with why the police and CPS dismissed the original complaint in 2008?

 

[butchersapron]

Don't try this@:
You don't think shit on me

 

[ymu]

Shortly after he became Commissioner, Sir Ian Blair asked me to review rape investigation in the MPS. Performance was patchy and he wanted the MPS to be the best in the world. The review revealed serious shortcomings and made strong recommendatons but senior officers were concerned about the impact the report would have on the MPS' reputation, particularly against the background of the criticisms levelled at the new Commissioner.

As a result I was told to tone down the criticisms and water-down the recommendations. My original report highlighted the changes over a period of four years, 2001/2 - 2004/5. It showed a large increase in the number of allegations of rape, but a similar fall in the percentage of allegations classified as rape by the police. It also identified wide variations in the way rape was investigated by the MPS within London.
The final report only analysed performance over two months in 2005 and sidestepped any criticism of the force, saying: "Any assessment of the performance of the MPS in the investigation of rape must be placed in the wider context of the complexity of rape allegations that are reported" and "without detailed case-by-case analysis, it's not possible to determine the extent to which police performance affected the outcome of the investigation."

In terms of remedial action, I recommended a radical change in approach, supporting a "consistent, victim-centred approach to the management of rape allegations". However, the final report concluded that existing practices were adequate, saying "it is adherence to best practice that needs to be addressed to ensure a consistently excellent service is delivered across London to the victims of rape."​

Paddick also claims that the Met's press officer told her that "her job was to ensure [the report] received no coverage at all". He concludes: "As a result, the service the MPS provided to rape victims was sacrificed in favour of the MPS' reputation."

http://www.newstatesman.com/node/183271/

Yeah, nothing to see here. No reason to look at the culture of the police, or society as a whole. Let's go for the Muslims instead.

 

[butchersapron]

.

I'm not saying that you are arguing this, but it is my point about this whole racist diversionary tactic. Unless it can be shown that men from conservative Muslim communities are disproportionately responsible for sexual crime, then trying to address it by examining their culture in isolation does nothing but promote racist attitudes whilst letting misogyny in society as a whole off the hook completely.

And if it can? What would count as proof?

 

[butchersapron]

You don't think there is any reason to start with why the police and CPS dismissed the original complaint in 2008?

Where was that said or implied in what i posted or argued~?

 

[8115]

Yeah, the race implications of the case are totally fractional compared to the feminist/ children's issues, which are massive and which pretty much nobody seems to really want to discuss. I mean, I don't expecially see the need to discuss it, it's grim, but I think it's very telling how much attention is going to the different aspects of the case.

I was thinking today, when many many men still feel it's ok to make jokes about things like, grass on the wicket, which they do in my experience, there's something pretty wrong in our society.

 

[ymu]

Where was that said or implied in what i posted or argued~?

You've edited since I responded, but your original post was:

I can't think of other ways to investigate. You are drowning.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Well, precisely. Whenever these cases happen, there's some special reason why the men behaved as they did. They're spoilt rich footballers, or backward rural Muslims, or some other kind of special monster that normal men aren't.

I do realise you were joking, but it's pretty fucking offensive to dismiss 'rape culture' like that. As if it is somehow an unusual response, and these attitudes aren't at all reflected in everyday culture and there are no issues with the attitudes of the police to women who report assault, and no history of them allowing predatory rapists to continue simply because they don't believe any crime has been committed.

The reason I am having a problem with the way this is being made into an argument about a specific culture is that it leads us into a racist, misogynist cul-de-sac. These men did not behave the way they did because they found themselves in a position to abuse vulnerable women, they did it because they were Pakistani. No more thought required.

Men from different cultures and backgrounds come into contact with vulnerable women in different circumstances. Young Pakistani men working long hours in a kebab shop are more likely to meet vulnerable young women hanging out there late at night, celebrities are more likely to have groupies delivering themselves, and men who go out clubbing more likely to find drunk women to take advantage of (and will probably be doing their best to make sure they get drunk).

This is the kind of shit some men do when given the opportunity, and they won't be prevented from doing it until and unless the police start taking complaints seriously, and the rest of society makes it 100% clear that violent, misogynistic 'humour' is not acceptable, no matter how 'normal' and non-rapey the bloke making the 'joke' assumes he is.

Not sure if I'm understanding you here, but I was actually making that exact point - I was lampooning the idea that this is a purely "Muslim" thing. Don't really want to cover what's already been covered in this thread, but while the precise nature of the crime may have roots in the cultural practices of certain Muslim communities, it's really a symptom of a much deeper, wider malaise.

In the weeks leading up to Evans' conviction I heard, and confronted, people in the pub singing songs about the scumbag - "he'll shag who he wants." Then after the conviction I had twats telling me that she only did it for the money and that they were assisting in a campaign to "clear his name". I also had people telling me that it was "completely normal", when reveiving a text from a friend telling you they've "got a bird", to assume that this means you can go over there and join in. Now I'm certainly no prude and I confess I'm not the most pc man in the world, but that's definitely not normal and even if it was it wouldn't be acceptable.

The club itself, like the Tory MPs claiming that some rapes are sort of "ok", hardly helped when he was played during the trial and, even after he was convicted, they refused to comment or to cancel his contract - that's right, he's still receiving £20k a week from Sheffield United - the justification? He'd launched an appeal (one with zero legal grounds by the way) and they didn't want to take any action until it had run its course. I suspect money was the main motivator - he was valued at around £3m and had the club canceled and by some highly unlikely travesty of justice he was acquitted, he would have been a free agent, able to join any club without United receiving a transfer fee.

Dealing with this outside the safety of Urban is a lot more difficult, and sometimes a lot more dangerous. I think I've earned the right to a bit of gallows humour.

They really are bitter twisted cunts with an inferiority complex though (although the inferiority complex is justified - they really are inferior in every way; morally, socially, intellectually and, most importantly, on the football pitch).

 

[butchersapron]

You've edited since I responded, but your original post was:

It was, now what?

Any answer?

 

[ymu]

Apologies for misreading you spiney. Great post.

 

[butchersapron]

Not sure if I'm understanding you here, but I was actually making that exact point - I was lampooning the idea that this is a purely "Muslim" thing. Don't really want to cover what's already been covered in this thread, but while the precise nature of the crime may have roots in the cultural practices of certain Muslim communities, it's really a symptom of a much deeper, wider malaise.

In the weeks leading up to Evans' conviction I heard, and confronted, people in the pub singing songs about the scumbag - "he'll shag who he wants." Then after the conviction I had twats telling me that she only did it for the money and that they were assisting in a campaign to "clear his name". I also had people telling me that it was "completely normal", when reveiving a text from a friend telling you they've "got a bird", to assume that this means you can go over there and join in. Now I'm certainly no prude and I confess I'm not the most pc man in the world, but that's definitely not normal and even if it was it wouldn't be acceptable.

The club itself, like the Tory MPs claiming that some rapes are sort of "ok", hardly helped when he was played during the trial and, even after he was convicted, they refused to comment or to cancel his contract - that's right, he's still receiving £20k a week from Sheffield United - the justification? He'd launched an appeal (one with zero legal grounds by the way) and they didn't want to take any action until it had run its course. I suspect money was the main motivator - he was valued at around £3m and had the club canceled and by some highly unlikely travesty of justice he was acquitted, he would have been a free agent, able to join any club without United receiving a transfer fee.

Dealing with this outside the safety of Urban is a lot more difficult, and sometimes a lot more dangerous. I think I've earned the right to a bit of gallows humour.

They really are bitter twisted cunts with an inferiority complex though (although the inferiority complex is justified - they really are inferior in every way; morally, socially, intellectually and, most importantly, on the football pitch).

Get out of yorkshire.

You're better than this tripe

 

[frogwoman]

i think that ymu makes a good point when she talks about how people think that people do this shit are "not normal" and it would never happen in their back yard. i have to admit i have the same attitude and it seems to me that sometimes i think we tolerate a lot more from people because we've known them a long time and because they would not do anything to us it is assumed that they would not do anything full stop. i also think people don't want to think of the idea that someone they know could be a rapist or another kind of serious criminal, it's a psychological self protection thing.

i also don't think there's one "pakistani community" btw. i think there's a bit of a problem when people assume that because a group of scum did something that everyone else in that vicinity "tolerates" it when they might not have known them at all or have any kind of association with them. i'm not saying anyone is doing that by the way and it is not exclusive to people from muslim countries. there's a big problem with people not being believed when sexual assaults are reported because people wouldn't want to countenance the idea that they were friends with a rapist, so it is easier to believe the person is making it up

 

[ymu]

It was, now what?

Any answer?

I have no idea what you're banging on about. Write a proper post with a proper argument that addresses what I am saying, and I might waste some time on you. Your lazy one-liner schtick is getting boring.

 

[butchersapron]

I have no idea what you're banging on about. Write a proper post with a proper argument that addresses what I am saying, and I might waste some time on you. Your lazy one-liner schtick is getting boring.

I was adressing your shit post here

Nice to see the oxbridge crew taking control of the situation - you decide