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Rochdale grooming trial: Nine men jailed

Just been reading the Telegraph features on the abuse, it goes much wider, the girls were passed round their mates as well, it is on a very big scale, but it is unlikely the other participants will be caught, maybe Allah will punish them when the time comes...

another unpleasant aspect is that a young girl, a former victim of the bastards nicknamed the 'honey monster' voluntarily procured these girls, so the awful cycle goes on...
 
It sounds like a similar cultural formation to that of western men who travel to south-east asia to have sex with young girls.
Not to me, it doesn't. Other bad people do bad things in other contexts. Of course. But should that stop you from confronting the full circumstances of this case?
 
Not to me, it doesn't. Other bad people do bad things in other contexts. Of course. But should that stop you from confronting the full circumstances of this case?

Of course not. The argument goldenecitrone is making is preventing people turning it into a race(ist) issue.
 
From my reading of his posts, his point is a little different - that their religion/culture are not relevant.

I can get that to a certain degree too. Although there's some terrible misogyny in Islamic communities, there's terrible misogyny in non Islamic ones too. Abuse of young girls from different cultural backgrounds isn't unique to Pakistani men.
 
Abuse of young girls from different cultural backgrounds isn't unique to Pakistani men.
What's the motivation for European men travelling to Asia to abuse girls, though? I'd suggest that it is the availability of the girls there, the fact that they can abuse girls or boys there in a way that they can't here, not because they're from a different culture that they view as degenerate.

When I lived in Cuba, I saw many very troubling situations with old European men - predominantly Spanish or Italian - lying by a pool or in a bar with a girl no more than 13 or 14. They paraded in public, and clearly didn't think they were doing anything wrong, or at least were not ashamed of themselves. And the harsh truth is that most of the time these girls' parents knew full well what they were doing, and in many cases encouraged it because of the money it brought in. It's a very very different dynamic.
 
Oxford too, bit of a media embargo on the trial but could be very big...

Not only does it promise to be 'very big' but there is an additional political dimension to it which the recent case (s) lacked, which will doubtless further provoke those lefties- whose anti-racists instincts on these, and other matters deemed sensitive, stand exposed as hand-me-down political pallatives from their betters (see Guardian ed) - into ever greater spasms of denial, moral relativism and deception.
 
Not only does it promise to be 'very big' but there is an additional political dimension to it which the recent case (s) lacked, which will doubtless further provoke those lefties- whose anti-racists instincts on these, and other matters deemed sensitive, stand exposed as hand-me-down political pallatives from their betters (see Guardian ed) - into ever greater spasms of denial, moral relativism and deception.
Hmmm. Thing is, let's at least have some consistency. So, for instance, where a black boy is murdered by a group of racist white thugs, we ask where these thugs came from and where their racist attitudes came from. What is it about where they grew up that left them with the attitudes they have?

Were you saying the same thing when Stephen Lawrence was murdered, for instance?
 
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Hmmm. Thing is, let's at least have some consistency. So, for instance, where a black boy is murdered by a group of racist white thugs, we ask where these thugs came from and where their racist attitudes came from. What is it about where they grew up that left them with the attitudes they have?
If indications were that they came from a specific self-re-enforcing culture that allowed that to happen yes. Some of the posts on here - and this is one of them - reduce culture down to individual background or circumstances, which is the exact opposite of what it is. It's a collective ongoing way of looking at the world and a justification for holding that view.
 
Hmmm. Thing is, let's at least have some consistency. So, for instance, where a black boy is murdered by a group of racist white thugs, we ask where these thugs came from and where their racist attitudes came from. What is it about where they grew up that left them with the attitudes they have?

Were you saying the same thing when Stephen Lawrence was murdered, for instance?
This did happen by the way - it's been happening for 20 years plus.
 
Some of the posts on here - and this is one of them - reduce culture down to individual background or circumstances,

Where you are looking at the actions of a group of individuals, their individual background will include any culture to which they feel they belong. The culture is a collective ongoing way of looking at the world, yes. Nothing I have said contradicts that.
 
This did happen by the way - it's been happening for 20 years plus.
It did, yes. But it's a bit like when David Starkey starts defending feminism - who is it exactly that is speaking up now, and were they the same people who spoke up with Stephen Lawrence. In many cases, I suspect not - especially those who talk about 'lefties'.
 
Where you are looking at the actions of a group of individuals, their individual background will include any culture to which they feel they belong. The culture is a collective ongoing way of looking at the world, yes. Nothing I have said contradicts that.
That's true. I take back that you were saying different. I'm still at a loss as to why you started your post tot Joe as if you had a disagreement though.
 
It did, yes. But it's a bit like when David Starkey starts defending feminism - who is it exactly that is speaking up now, and were they the same people who spoke up with Stephen Lawrence. In many cases, I suspect not - especially those who talk about 'lefties'.
It was the same people talking about whatever was the equivalent then of chavs - the same social smearing went on, and has actually been going on ever since. Whereas the sort of urgently required forensic political views of SL and the new cases were knocked aside. By the same people and the same class - sometimes from the right, sometimes from the left, sometimes (and this is what it looks like politically) - together.
 
Well, you're not a teacher and don't get to mark down for that.
The tone matters, though. In fact, your post above illustrates why, I think. I wasn't really talking about the smearing of 'chavs'. I meant something a bit more considered than that - the equivalent to danny's posts on this thread, but applied to the places Lawrence's killers came from. Not judging them, but to an extent asking them to judge themselves.
 
The tone matters, though. In fact, your post above illustrates why, I think. I wasn't really talking about the smearing of 'chavs'. I meant something a bit more considered than that - the equivalent to danny's posts on this thread, but applied to the places Lawrence's killers came from. Not judging them, but to an extent asking them to judge themselves.

I didn't suggest that you were, i was. (and nice that i my post wasn't considered enough) - and i expanded on how that actually played oput over the last 20 years - in concrete reality.

You agree with the weight of Joe's posts but suggest that he thinks that a one-eyed racial view might be justified - and this from the tone?
 
I didn't mean your post wasn't considered. I meant that 'smearing "chavs"' was not considered.

Anyway, I'll leave it. We're talking past each other. I think tone matters, though. I think it matters a lot. Starting off confrontational is not a good way to engage, imo.
 
What's the motivation for European men travelling to Asia to abuse girls, though? I'd suggest that it is the availability of the girls there, the fact that they can abuse girls or boys there in a way that they can't here, not because they're from a different culture that they view as degenerate.

When I lived in Cuba, I saw many very troubling situations with old European men - predominantly Spanish or Italian - lying by a pool or in a bar with a girl no more than 13 or 14. They paraded in public, and clearly didn't think they were doing anything wrong, or at least were not ashamed of themselves. And the harsh truth is that most of the time these girls' parents knew full well what they were doing, and in many cases encouraged it because of the money it brought in. It's a very very different dynamic.
That's about economics more than culture. Indian families aren't too thrilled about selling their kids into indentured servitude either, but it's about survival.

How on earth do you know it wasn't 'condoned' by sections of this 'community'? there are many anecdotal stories coming out that at the very least their co workers on the taxis, fast food outlets were aware, some indeed condoning or turning a blind eye. of course it is part of a wider abusive culture towards young girls with no power or support, but these attempts to minimise the role of elements of some closed communities with arcane religious strictures doesn't help..

In the UK it seems very likely that there are cultural elements that make this particular form of sexual predation more prevalent with Pakistani men. This probably has less to do with race and more to do with there being relatively few Pakistani men hanging around night-clubs waiting to pounce on drunk women, whether or not they habitually share their victims with their mates.

I think it's pretty hard to claim that there is more evidence that this sort of behaviour is condoned by the Pakistani community when it would not be condoned by another community. Look at the disgusting reaction to Ched Evans being sent down for raping a girl who was barely conscious, procured for him by a mate and who was filmed being raped by him by two more of their friends who had turned up when they got the phone call.

Some men rape when they think they can get away with it. Unsurprisingly, this is very common when they're part of a society that openly defends men who rape and denigrates those women who complain about it.

We're told that the methods used in the Rochdale case are most commonly used by Pakistani men - yet we are also told that this is the first case of its kind. Why is that? How is it that we know so much about how these men operate but we've never bothered to prosecute any of them before? Perhaps it's because the police don't take rape seriously, no matter what the colour of the rapists?

Some people think this is a problem all year round, others seem only to be interested when there is a racial angle available, misogyny being far too trivial a topic to interest them normally. What they don't say is as illuminating as what they do.
 
it's hardly an exclusively muslim/pakistani problem is it? there might be more of an unspoken acceptance in some - SOME - sections of that community, but i bet there is in the white community as well. i've came across one or two jews who expressed the attitude that non jewish women were only good for a quick shag to, but they were cunts anyway. perhaps they'd grown up in a milieu (lol) where that was given a social sanction or maybe they were just like that anyway. im not wading through 13 pages of this thread but i just thought i'd make that point. i know many muslims and don't really know any who'd be like that.
 
it's hardly an exclusively muslim/pakistani problem is it?

No, but baradiri is exclusively Pakistani. Baradiri is difficult to translate, but essentially refers to clan loyalty to specific villages in Pakistan. All the groomers in this case (except for the Afghan one), hail from the same area of Pakistan, as do the two labour councillors (Zulf Ali & Aftab Hussein) who spoke up for them in court. Quite a lot of shady business goes on behind this baradiri thing with postal voting and such as well.

Mind you, Rochdale's got a (not so) proud history of covering up systematic sexual abuse that stretches back decades from Sir Cyril's spanking allegations to Knowl View school. It's a deeply fucked up place, the dale - Far worse than Oldham.
 
Well, that takes us back to my post on page 2. Take a step back from these particular men, and ask yourself whether rapists, whether the act of rape, can be separated from the misogyny of the rapist. I suggest not. While not all sexists and misogynists are rapists, all rapists are sexists and misogynists. They are the extreme manifestation of the attitudes towards women that they have learned.

Yes, society as a whole needs to tackle those issues. Just as society as a whole needs to address its attitudes towards children. But in this case specifically the police and the CPS need to address their attitudes towards children that were at the root of their failings here. And the communities within which these men learned their attitudes towards women have to address those attitudes.

I dont disagree with what your saying. What Im saying is misogony may, in this case, have little or nothing to do with their cultural attitudes to women.
 
Except is isn't isolated. There are other cases. Furthermore, the evidence suggests that these men were already a network before they engaged in this grooming activity. This all suggests that attitudes were already shared and reinforced within the group. I don't think that we can cover it by saying it's individuals who separately and severally arrived at these attitudes, then came together to carry out these activities. We're talking here about in-group attitudes reinforced by traditional certainties (even, more widely, God-ordained certainties) about a man's place and a woman's place.

However, we need to make the distinction between "this is what Muslims do", and "this is what can flow from conservative patriarchal misogyny". Not only that, we need to re-establish the distinction between race and culture. That's why we can't leave it to the far right to make the running.
 
I think it's pretty hard to claim that there is more evidence that this sort of behaviour is condoned by the Pakistani community when it would not be condoned by another community. Look at the disgusting reaction to Ched Evans being sent down for raping a girl who was barely conscious, procured for him by a mate and who was filmed being raped by him by two more of their friends who had turned up when they got the phone call.

That's Sheffield United fans though. They have their very own paranoid, twisted, bitter culture born of years of inferiority.
 
No, but baradiri is exclusively Pakistani. Baradiri is difficult to translate, but essentially refers to clan loyalty to specific villages in Pakistan. All the groomers in this case (except for the Afghan one), hail from the same area of Pakistan, as do the two labour councillors (Zulf Ali & Aftab Hussein) who spoke up for them in court. Quite a lot of shady business goes on behind this baradiri thing with postal voting and such as well.

Mind you, Rochdale's got a (not so) proud history of covering up systematic sexual abuse that stretches back decades from Sir Cyril's spanking allegations to Knowl View school. It's a deeply fucked up place, the dale - Far worse than Oldham.

Loyalty networks are nothing new over here, either, to be scrupulously fair. That the loyalty network in this case happens to be "tribal" rather than old school tie just means it was less visible until exposed.
 
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