Rochdale grooming trial: Nine men jailed
- Thread starter Stoat Boy
- Start date
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Nah, everywhere has its cunts - while the south is infected by Tory voters we have Sheffield United fans to deal with. They're only slightly worse than Tories anyway. And the negative impact of SUFC, the stain on this great city, is more than made up for by the positive influence of the amazing, MASSIVE Sheffield Wednesday. We're the batman to their penguin... or something.
Although to be fair to my porcine neighbours, most united fans were ashamed - the planned protest at their match against Stevenage was a total failure, a few cocks who were roundly booed when they tried to stand up at the allotted time.
I think there is an element of this in the Ched Evans case. Fans have a strange relationship with players - although the player doesn't have a clue who they are, fans feel like they "know" the players. 'How could "our Ched", the number 9 who scored 30 odd goals, be a rapist? She must be lying, I mean - he could have his pick couldn't he, doesn't have to rape anyone.' I'm absolutely certain this is what some people thought, in fact a couple of people as much as said it to me.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
yeah.i have got to say i think it's the sort of thing that would be common unfortunately in many groups of friends and many people tolerate fucked up behaviour because they've "known them a long time" or whatever. and i can see how this could be replicated on a bigger scale with quite closed communities or religious institutions such as the catholic church, where there is that idea (which is a very common one) of "I've known him a long time so he must be all right" combined with a general fear of it reflecting badly on the church/god/whatever.
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
i'm sorry ymu but it's laughable to try and claim that the reason the Pakistani community is disproportionately involved in an organised and pan-community grooming gang is because they're more likely to come across drunk white girls in kebab shops (as opposed to in clubs).
the point about the grooming gangs is just that, they're not isolated incidences of individuals doing something by themselves and then maybe being publically supported by their immediate friends. this is a situation where many, many respected individuals from across an entire community were colluding together over years to specifically groom underage and non-Muslim girls.
this was organised, which is why its spurious to link it to the individual actions of moneyed up weirdos sex-touring the Philippines - and it was in no small part the close-knit and sectionalised nature of the communal structure as a whole which allowed for the level of collusion (as has been noted, the number of men actually charged here is just the tip of the iceberg).
the point about the grooming gangs is just that, they're not isolated incidences of individuals doing something by themselves and then maybe being publically supported by their immediate friends. this is a situation where many, many respected individuals from across an entire community were colluding together over years to specifically groom underage and non-Muslim girls.
this was organised, which is why its spurious to link it to the individual actions of moneyed up weirdos sex-touring the Philippines - and it was in no small part the close-knit and sectionalised nature of the communal structure as a whole which allowed for the level of collusion (as has been noted, the number of men actually charged here is just the tip of the iceberg).
Grandma Death
Reconfiguring & Reconstructing
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i see my point's flown right over your head, as i didn't say, allude to or imply anything about muslim communities, be they conservative or progressive or whatever. in fact, your post's a nice little example of how to smear someone while saying 'i'm not saying you're arguing this'. so why the fuck did you say it in the first place?
you claim that men 'won't be prevented from doing it until and unless the police start taking complaints seriously'; given the police's history around rape cases in this country over the past 183 years, you clearly don't see any prospects for change in the foreseeable.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Never thought i'd say it, great hard political posts on here. Ta for the posts.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
Exactly. That is just one point that seems to need continual reinforcing. The other is that these were not 'young women' either were they.
Not - 'barely legal' - barely teen in some cases.
Message to the dissemblers: reverse the melanin between perps and targets and see how wrong-headed and decadent your special pleading actually is.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
I don't disagree with any of that, apart from the attempt to pretend that it doesn't happen in other cultural communities.
Connor Brown texted his mates to let them know he had a girl they could abuse. Do you think that was some isolated incident, or part of their culture?
The police laughed at women who reported Warboys for rape. An aberration, or routine practice in their culture?
I think it is undoubtedly true that cultural aspects played a part here - men from conservative Muslim communities often do not understand that women who dress less modestly and who are free to openly have sexual relationships are not automatically up for it, and this perception does give licence to immature hormones and sexual predators alike. In my very limited experience, very publicly rebuking these men for hassling you gets masses of approval from the local community, especially if that local community also has difficulty in understanding the sexual mores of Western culture and has no idea how to tackle the problem when they assume that the victims are happy with it.
Which is why it is a huge problem that the attitudes of wider society and the police are coming under no scrutiny whatsoever, in favour of, yet again, dismissing this as something very specific to the men/culture concerned and nothing whatsoever to do with wider societal attitudes towards rape and the abuse of vulnerable women.
How can you pontificate about them seeing white women as worthless when our legal system allows the way a woman chooses to dress and her past sexual history to be used by the defence in a rape case? There's a reason they think these girls are fair game, and it's because our society as a whole treats them as fair game too.
IF we accept that there may well be a "disproportionate" involvement in the grooming of young girls (who come from the white community indeed, but are mostly an especially vulnerable sub-set of girls from problem White families , often already abused by their fathers, and are in "care") by members of the Muslim community. What is the political conclusion we are being invited to draw from this by Joe, Uberdog, and others ?
When I was working in North Wales in the mid 90's the entire residential childcare system was in crisis because of trials underway of a HUGE number of abusive cases , by white men, stretching back 50 years or more. Did this tell us something toxic about the ENTIRE North Wales population ? I don't think so really.
We all know that there are some VERY unacceptable aspects to the traditional cultural practices, especially regards women, of the Muslim community, based on cultural norms in their originating countries which are TODAY considered unacceptable to the majority indigenous community - but of course were pretty standard (apart from female circumcision) in the UK 100 years ago. Over time it is usually the case that incomer cultural norms merge with those of the host community. There is no reason to think this wont happen in the UK with the Muslim community. So, other than us understanding the cultural factors which lead many Muslim men to view white girls all too often as "whores" simply because they are not imprisoned in the home, and wearing a veil, what "lesson" do you want us "liberals" to wise up to , Joe, or Uberdog ? Do we deport em all because thir culture is "inferior" to ours ? What is the "action-based" policy/policies that you see as springing from a recognition that some cultural norms held by recent immigrants do not, yet, coincide with the host community ?
When I was working in North Wales in the mid 90's the entire residential childcare system was in crisis because of trials underway of a HUGE number of abusive cases , by white men, stretching back 50 years or more. Did this tell us something toxic about the ENTIRE North Wales population ? I don't think so really.
We all know that there are some VERY unacceptable aspects to the traditional cultural practices, especially regards women, of the Muslim community, based on cultural norms in their originating countries which are TODAY considered unacceptable to the majority indigenous community - but of course were pretty standard (apart from female circumcision) in the UK 100 years ago. Over time it is usually the case that incomer cultural norms merge with those of the host community. There is no reason to think this wont happen in the UK with the Muslim community. So, other than us understanding the cultural factors which lead many Muslim men to view white girls all too often as "whores" simply because they are not imprisoned in the home, and wearing a veil, what "lesson" do you want us "liberals" to wise up to , Joe, or Uberdog ? Do we deport em all because thir culture is "inferior" to ours ? What is the "action-based" policy/policies that you see as springing from a recognition that some cultural norms held by recent immigrants do not, yet, coincide with the host community ?
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
ymu said:
I agree with elements of this, insofar as there is a general tendency amongst general society (spanning both right and left) to see young 'chavvy' girls (in particular) as scum. If they're seen as scum more broadly, then that obviously makes them all the more susceptible to abuse. However there are also cultural reasons here, very widespread prejudices amongst the North-West Pakistani community and a degree of misogyny which frankly makes generalised cultural attitudes amongst almost every other section of society appear incredibly tame. I'm afraid you might have to experience this before its evident - all I can tell you is that I know first-hand. I've lived in the North-West all my life, spent years on various different projects spanning the different communities, went to a college with roughly 50% Pakistani intake, and continue to have lots of friends from the Pakistani community. Whereas misogyny elsewhere may be represented in many cases by a grudging and often personal refusal to accept or internalise the ideas of equality (which are dominant in discourse and ideology) in the Pakistani community you have a pocket which has often resisted attempts to normalise even the most basic egalitarian principles between men and women.
ayatollah said:
firstly, i think that Cultural Relativism is absolute horse-shit and the left needs to actively argue for its own principles wrt cultural practices and norms. where migrant communities act in anti-social ways this shouldn't be ignored, and members of the community should not go unchallenged on cultural practice which is backwards. this was old practice, 1960s - looking at the way in which the Communist Party interacted with the Jewish community in the 1930s you see a radically different approach to the way in which the left approaches migrant communities today. indeed, most Jewish CP converts rejected their Jewish identity in favour of a secular class identity... something which happens incredibly rarely today (indeed often the reverse happens... from my time in the SWP i know a fair few Marxist 'converts' to Islam).
in my opinion, that should be the primary 'practical' lesson.
This guy knows how it is, all these chumps who've probably never set foot in rochdale trying to say how it is... jesus
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Got a link for that?
Ranbay
The same rules apply
may struggle at 11 on Sunday night to find something after a few drinks, but there was defo talk back last year that they knew who had been using the services..... also there was more arrests last week, could be connected?
failing that will look it up in the AM from work.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Ranbay
The same rules apply
26-9 = another 17 other people.
I did read some place that they knew who had been using the services of these men, and they would be coming for them..... cant find it now but will have another look in the morning but assume they would need to sort the ring leaders out before they take the others down.
This kinda shit's been going on for years, let's hope dibble are finally taking it seriously. ymu's right in a way - It does all boil down to misogyny, but there is a cultural element at play as well - A lot of stani lads do use disenfranchised white girls to practice shagging on.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
"great hard political posts" meaning ones you agree with?! (Uberdog seems to have been on quite a journey from Gallowayite scurge of Islamophobia to his current attitude but there you go).
Anyway I can see why Joe Reilly et al are opposed to a liberal veto on criticising characteristics of "the muslim community" (sic) and insisting on a pre-emptory univerisalisation of sex crime, and would agree here. But he tends to fall into the obverse error - where any reference to what instances of group sexual predatory behaviour by men have *in common* must automatically be part and parcel of this liberal dissembling.
Surely it is reasonable, indeed necessary, to look at BOTH the specific characteristics of how this form of group sexual grooming has arisen within some groups of British Pakistani men, and also how it relates to trends in other ethnic/cultural contexts including how forms of masculinity are structured and how male sexuality is policed/licensed?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It means a point well made without waffly pretension and whataboutery
So, let me get this right, you agree with Joe but want to force a closure on him and everyone else - only you can say such things. Everyone else is doing it wrong.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Do you think nobody is doing the latter? The problem is when cultural relativists use the latter as an excuse to avoid the former.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
I think it's really easy to chuck out the cultural relativist jibe here, but I think there's a very different sort of cultural relativism at work in this instance (not saying that there aren't also yer typical cultural relativists talking shite, mind). I'm too tired to find the words right now, but I posted a bit about it in a different context on another thread - hopefully it translates well enough to this context:
Yeah, this is really hacking me off about 'honour killings' at the moment. I've seen two documentaries recently, and they both relied heavily on cases which were not honour killings.
1. Bloke kills his wife in a fit of rage after finding out she was having an affair. They're Asian, so it's an honour killing.
2. Girl gets involved with a lad but fancies his mate, goes with his mate, gets pregnant, both boys tell her to fuck off, she confronts the father at his home, he takes her for a walk by the canal and drowns her. The girl is white but the two boys were Asian, so it's an honour killing.
Plus the fucking shite spouted about this kind of abuse when committed by brown people, whilst we have this shit happening here:
A very different sort of cultural relativism, practiced by racists.
Das Uberdog said:
"firstly, i think that Cultural Relativism is absolute horse-shit and the left needs to actively argue for its own principles wrt cultural practices and norms. where migrant communities act in anti-social ways this shouldn't be ignored, and members of the community should not go unchallenged on cultural practice which is backwards. this was old practice, 1960s - looking at the way in which the Communist Party interacted with the Jewish community in the 1930s you see a radically different approach to the way in which the left approaches migrant communities today. indeed, most Jewish CP converts rejected their Jewish identity in favour of a secular class identity... something which happens incredibly rarely today (indeed often the reverse happens... from my time in the SWP i know a fair few Marxist 'converts' to Islam)."
Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for a rigorous enforcement of existing laws against female circumcision, forced marriages, honour killing.. and I recognise that in the specific area of female rights many recent immigrant communities have brought with them undesirable social customs from a pre industrial era, which were once universal in Europe too (until well into the 20th century in Britain wives and children were legally just chattels of the husband).
However this is a transitional problem, and it is quite obvious that young Asian women in particular are increasingly challenging the restrictive customs of their communities - hence the widespread "honour killings" across that community. In a generation or two young asian women will undoubtedly have asserted their rights to be treated just as their white sisters are.
Not all religous /cultural practices will ever conform, however, Now I'm not in favour of either Kosher or Halal ritual killing methods.. but as a community we've tolerated it for hundreds of years done by Jews, and I'm afraid we'll just have to tolerate it by Muslims too. To campaign against it simply lines one up with racists. You line up against it as a practice if you want - but you'll have some VERY dodgy allies.
Your "solution" or objective , As I derive it from your claim that on joining the Communist Party in the 1930's "most Jewish converts" rejected their Jewish identity, may well be based on fact , but does this imply that a practicing Jew cannot be a communist ? You seem to HOPE so. Well I'm not too keen on many aspects of another major world religion, Roman Catholicism, as a profoundly reactionery religion organisationally and as a belief system , and we now all know it's priesthood is the biggest organised paedophile ring in world history. Should we expect Catholics to abandon their faith on becoming socialists ? I hope NOT, despite my own hostility to many features of organised Catholicism. Because it cuts socialists off from whole swathes of the working class, and expects them to abandon deeply held belief systems , which is simply NOT NECESSARY as a precondition of participating in the class struggle.
But of course you Uberdog, and those who agree with your post, aren't interested in exposing the reactionery nature of Catholicism, or the sexual perversion so widespread in its priesthood - but instead are only too keen to pick up on misbehaviour by a small number of criminals within an already demonised ethnic minority, in order to smear the ENTIRE COMMUNTY, and of course follow in the trail of the BNP et al. You see yourselves as standing up against "Liberal moral relativism" . I see you as being strangely SELECTIVE in denouncing particular communities for their undesirable cultural practices and the misbehaviour of just a few. And what underlies that selectivity ? A "falling into line" with the identical selectivity and Islamophobic prejudice of the popular press and the Far Right that's what.
"firstly, i think that Cultural Relativism is absolute horse-shit and the left needs to actively argue for its own principles wrt cultural practices and norms. where migrant communities act in anti-social ways this shouldn't be ignored, and members of the community should not go unchallenged on cultural practice which is backwards. this was old practice, 1960s - looking at the way in which the Communist Party interacted with the Jewish community in the 1930s you see a radically different approach to the way in which the left approaches migrant communities today. indeed, most Jewish CP converts rejected their Jewish identity in favour of a secular class identity... something which happens incredibly rarely today (indeed often the reverse happens... from my time in the SWP i know a fair few Marxist 'converts' to Islam)."
Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for a rigorous enforcement of existing laws against female circumcision, forced marriages, honour killing.. and I recognise that in the specific area of female rights many recent immigrant communities have brought with them undesirable social customs from a pre industrial era, which were once universal in Europe too (until well into the 20th century in Britain wives and children were legally just chattels of the husband).
However this is a transitional problem, and it is quite obvious that young Asian women in particular are increasingly challenging the restrictive customs of their communities - hence the widespread "honour killings" across that community. In a generation or two young asian women will undoubtedly have asserted their rights to be treated just as their white sisters are.
Not all religous /cultural practices will ever conform, however, Now I'm not in favour of either Kosher or Halal ritual killing methods.. but as a community we've tolerated it for hundreds of years done by Jews, and I'm afraid we'll just have to tolerate it by Muslims too. To campaign against it simply lines one up with racists. You line up against it as a practice if you want - but you'll have some VERY dodgy allies.
Your "solution" or objective , As I derive it from your claim that on joining the Communist Party in the 1930's "most Jewish converts" rejected their Jewish identity, may well be based on fact , but does this imply that a practicing Jew cannot be a communist ? You seem to HOPE so. Well I'm not too keen on many aspects of another major world religion, Roman Catholicism, as a profoundly reactionery religion organisationally and as a belief system , and we now all know it's priesthood is the biggest organised paedophile ring in world history. Should we expect Catholics to abandon their faith on becoming socialists ? I hope NOT, despite my own hostility to many features of organised Catholicism. Because it cuts socialists off from whole swathes of the working class, and expects them to abandon deeply held belief systems , which is simply NOT NECESSARY as a precondition of participating in the class struggle.
But of course you Uberdog, and those who agree with your post, aren't interested in exposing the reactionery nature of Catholicism, or the sexual perversion so widespread in its priesthood - but instead are only too keen to pick up on misbehaviour by a small number of criminals within an already demonised ethnic minority, in order to smear the ENTIRE COMMUNTY, and of course follow in the trail of the BNP et al. You see yourselves as standing up against "Liberal moral relativism" . I see you as being strangely SELECTIVE in denouncing particular communities for their undesirable cultural practices and the misbehaviour of just a few. And what underlies that selectivity ? A "falling into line" with the identical selectivity and Islamophobic prejudice of the popular press and the Far Right that's what.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You brilliant fool.
Good job white blokes never do that eh?
Ranbay
The same rules apply
can't find anything so it may have been on the TV news, they definatly said they had details and knew of the people who had been using the services of these girls as paying customers. And as it's widely reported that they where pimping them out that would make sense.
unless im mixing it up with the new case in Oxford?
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
They're exactly the same methods as used by virtually every UK abattoir, precisely because they are considered the most humane. Ignorant racists prattle on about the cruelty of letting an animal bleed to death, but they're ignorant racists ... The animals die almost instantly. Meat that had not been left to drain of blood would be inedible.
There is some controversy in Islam about whether stunning before cutting the animal's throat is acceptable, but plenty of Islamic scholars who argue that it is (the theological issue is that the animal must be known to be alive when it's killed - it's one of those old-time public health rules on food which pepper the Torah and the Koran). I'm not sure if it's legal to use non-stunning methods in this country - pretty sure most halal meat produced here has been stunned.
If you care about someone muttering a prayer to a sky pixie with the wrong name when they do the killing, then there is an issue. Not otherwise.
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