Racism towards Travellers in the UK

[bellaozzydog]

Has no one done the swap the protected characteristic group around thing yet

Spymaster

“I’ve said that all of the
Old/young/Female/black/Asian/Jewish/disabled/trans/Inuit/gay/pregnant people that I’ve had experience with (and that’s substantial) have acted like cunts and because of that I avoid large groups of them”

While it’s a statement of your facts/lived experience and avoidance behaviour….

In the context of a thread discussing the last acceptable racism in society you do understand why you get some push back in ?

 

[Spymaster]

Has no one done the swap the protected characteristic group around thing yet

Spymaster

“I’ve said that all of the
Old/young/Female/black/Asian/Jewish/disabled/trans/Inuit/gay/pregnant people that I’ve had experience with (and that’s substantial) have acted like cunts and because of that I avoid large groups of them”

While it’s a statement of your facts/lived experience and avoidance behaviour….

In the context of a thread discussing the last acceptable racism in society you do understand why you get some push back in ?

Oh, I understand it in the context of who’s doing the pushing. The fact remains that when I see threads like this, and I specifically refer to Irish travellers, I see the staunch defence that some of you mount, to be a defence of people who have always been horrifically racist and abusive to me and everyone I know. I see a thread discussing how people shouldn’t be racist to racists.

I’m afraid your ‘they’re not all the same’ hits a bum note, because whilst I appreciate that they can’t all be cunts, our experience has been so overwhelmingly negative that I’m well past the point of trying to sympathise with the ones who aren’t.

 

[chainsawjob]

The mental health crisis in the Traveling communities in Ireland can be said to stem from the inherent discrimination they face. The fencing in of people and attempts to wipe out the culture. Which can lead to suicide.

Irish Travellers 'mental health crisis' driven by discrimination and deprivation

Discrimination and deprivation are among key factors in the struggles felt by the community in Ireland.

www.bbc.com

"In 2021, an Irish parliamentary committee reported that 11% of Travellers in Ireland die by suicide."

That's shocking. The article says that's a seven times higher rate than non-travellers. And only 3% of Irish travellers live past age 65. Also shocking.

 

[Rob Ray]

I see the staunch defence that some of you mount, to be a defence of people who have always been horrifically racist and abusive to me and everyone I know. I see a thread discussing how people shouldn’t be racist to racists.

For someone who's been complaining about being misrepresented that's pretty rich. Not a single person has denied that you've experienced racism from travellers or made excuses for it.

What has been said is that your extrapolation of what happened to you at a particular place and time to affect every Irish Traveller everywhere forever (it doesn't matter if you theoretically accept the possibility of Good Ones, lots of racists do that) is also bigoted behaviour.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

In the context of a thread discussing the last acceptable racism in society you do understand why you get some push back in ?

So what are you saying? Shouldn't Spymaster talk about racism he's experienced?

 

[Spymaster]

For someone who's been complaining about being misrepresented that's pretty rich. Not a single person has denied that you've experienced racism from travellers or made excuses for it.

What has been said is that your extrapolation of what happened to you at a particular place and time to affect every Irish Traveller everywhere forever (it doesn't matter if you theoretically accept the possibility of Good Ones, lots of racists do that) is also bigoted behaviour.

Well this is wrong on several points. I haven’t complained about being misrepresented, although that’s precisely what you’re doing with this post.

I’ve specifically not said that ALL of them are the same. Simply that ALL of the ones I’ve had involvement with have been thoroughly objectionable and because of that I avoid them in large groups. I’d be fucking stupid not to!

 

[Rob Ray]

So what are you saying? Shouldn't Spymaster talk about racism he's experienced?

He absolutely can. But the effect here is to divert a conversation about the oppression travellers face, where, I might note, actual travellers may show up from a Google or something, into a conversation about his blanket hatred of Irish Travellers.

 

[Rob Ray]

I haven’t complained about being misrepresented

You're repeatedly complained about it. "Think you and that dog fella are reading a different thread to everyone else" blah blah blah.

I’ve specifically not said that ALL of them are the same.

(it doesn't matter if you theoretically accept the possibility of Good Ones, lots of racists do that)

 

[Spymaster]

He absolutely can. But the effect here is to divert a conversation about the oppression travellers face, where, I might note, actual travellers may show up from a Google or something, into a conversation about his blanket hatred of Irish Travellers.

Well that’s the nature of boards such as this. People are free to express their opinions and others free to disagree with them. That’s what’s happened here, so when your hypothetical travellers Google and read this thread, they’ll see why I hold the opinions I do .

 

[Spymaster]

You're repeatedly complained about it. "Think you and that dog fella are reading a different thread to everyone else" blah blah blah.

That’s not a complaint!

That’s me disagreeing with your view. Happens a lot.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

That's nuts. So even if I say that I know not every man in a certain area is a bullying misogynistic wanker, but I'm still not going to walk down there because of previous experiences, that makes me a bigot?

Fuck sake.

 

[Rob Ray]

That’s not a complaint!

That’s me disagreeing with your view. Happens a lot.

It does, but it's also you accusing me (not being the only one) of misrepresenting you. Which fine if that's what you want to do, but you are doing it.

 

[Rob Ray]

That's nuts. So even if I say that I know not every man in a certain area is a bullying misogynistic wanker, but I'm still not going to walk down there because of previous experiences, that makes me a bigot?

Fuck sake.

The bit in bold is pretty much what I've been trying to get Spymaster to acknowledge.

#114: But let's say you had a couple dozen negative interactions, and made your decision from that. What you'd more probably mean there would be "Irish Travellers round my way have always been racist arseholes." Now can you work out why I might add the words in italics?

 

[Spymaster]

It does, but it's also you accusing me (not being the only one) of misrepresenting you. Which fine if that's what you want to do, but you are doing it.

I certainly accused you of misrepresentation in your last post, and said as much.

It’s not a complaint though, it’s what you do. I’m used to it.

 

[Rob Ray]

 

[Spymaster]

The bit in bold is pretty much all I've been trying to get Spymaster to acknowledge.

Change that to in every area you or your family/friends have ever met them.

Do you really expect me to give credence to the fact that Berkshire IT’s may be much nicer than Cheshire ones?

You realise that travellers, travel, right?

 

[Rob Ray]

Do you really expect me to give credence to the fact that Berkshire IT’s may be much nicer than Cheshire ones?

I don't expect you to, no.

You realise that travellers, travel, right?

Some, yes (90% don't and the amount of travelling that actually takes place varies widely). You realise that traveller families/groups are often fairly self-contained with fairly regular circuits who can therefore have very different life experiences and attitudes in different parts of the country, right?

 

[Spymaster]

Some, yes (90% don't and the amount of travelling that actually takes place varies widely). You realise that traveller families/groups are often fairly self-contained with fairly regular circuits who can therefore have very different life experiences and attitudes in different parts of the country, right?

I’m sure that’s the case, so now you’re arguing that some groups are horribly racist whilst others may not be. That’s not the same as “the ones in your area” that you were previously arguing is it? Do you think they all turned into Mother Teresa when they crossed the border into Surrey?

 

[brogdale]

Change that to in every area you or your family/friends have ever met them.

Do you really expect me to give credence to the fact that Berkshire IT’s may be much nicer than Cheshire ones?

You realise that travellers, travel, right?

Thing is Spy, if you post up general attitudes that racially stereotype on the basis of specific examples, you surely expect to be questioned/challenged?

I have taken the time to read your posts in that earlier thread and, if those accounts of the behaviour towards your parents are accurate, I can appreciate why this is a topic that you find personally challenging or emotive. That said, in your first contribution to this thread you dis say that:

along with many other British Asians, [you] find it difficult to sympathise with this group of people who are themselves, very often, incredibly racist towards black and Asian people.

That invites many questions, particularly when you appear to be speaking for another, whole ethnic group.

When you say that you find it difficult to sympathise with this group, (GRT or "Irish travellers"), I'm left wondering whether this lack of sympathy represents a view that the group are not themselves a group who suffer racism or that you accept that they are but this is something that you accept/don't care about/welcome on the basis that they deserve it?

 

[Rob Ray]

Again, best not to misrepresent me if you're going to hang your hat on how often I supposedly do it to you. I've said that families/groups can have different experiences and attitudes. I said nothing about what that entailed in terms of locality. In fact though there's no conflict between discussing particular sets of people and locality, if a particular family of travellers prone to racism is regularly showing up in your area because it's on their circuit then they are the ones in your area.

Of course you can get particular behaviour running across families, that's quite obvious and normal - but even so you get plenty of people who don't go along with the trend. And what I'm not doing is expanding that to dismiss an entire population of people spread across a large country.

Do you think they all turned into Mother Teresa when they crossed the border into Surrey?

No.

 

[Spymaster]

Again, best not to misrepresent me if you're going to hang your hat on how often I supposedly do it to you. I've said that families/groups can have different experiences and attitudes. I said nothing about what that entailed.

Do you accept that large groups of ITs are obscenely racist towards black and Asian people?

 

[bellaozzydog]

That's nuts. So even if I say that I know not every man in a certain area is a bullying misogynistic wanker, but I'm still not going to walk down there because of previous experiences, that makes me a bigot?

Fuck sake.

For starters “men” aren’t a protected characteristic group

The context is “is racism against the GRT community the last acceptable racism

A poster has repeatedly posted that every experience he has had with a group is racist and he thinks they are “cunts” that he avoids.

No one is denying his lived experience

I suppose the question is, what is spymasters answer to the question

“is racism against the GRT community the last acceptable racism”

That would bring us back on to topic

 

[Rob Ray]

Do you accept that large groups of ITs are obscenely racist towards black and Asian people?

Yes. I've never said otherwise. I can say the same about quite a lot of groups if you'd like. Large groups of white people in East Anglia, for example. I do not, however, expand that to the point where I'm going to stop talking to anyone from East Anglia on the grounds that they're basically all like that (apart from hypothetical Good Ones) and spend my time slagging them off on threads about troubles in East Anglia.

 

[Shechemite]

Shechemite

You done the exact same post on the Roger Waters thread. And it still isn't some kind of gotcha, or as interesting and relevant as you seem to think it is.

If you've nothing to add to the topic, politely fuck off with your cross beef.

Cheers.

So you won’t answer it no.

You can answer it on the rw thread if you like

 

[Spymaster]

Thing is Spy, if you post up general attitudes that racially stereotype on the basis of specific examples, you surely expect to be questioned/challenged?

I have taken the time to read your posts in that earlier thread and, if those accounts of the behaviour towards your parents are accurate, I can appreciate why this is a topic that you find personally challenging or emotive. That said, in your first contribution to this thread you dis say that:

That invites many questions, particularly when you appear to be speaking for another, whole ethnic group.

When you say that you find it difficult to sympathise with this group, (GRT or "Irish travellers"), I'm left wondering whether this lack of sympathy represents a view that the group are not themselves a group who suffer racism or that you accept that they are but this is something that you accept/don't care about/welcome on the basis that they deserve it?

I'm not attempting to speak for a whole ethnic group. I said 'many other British Asians'. In that I was referring to those that I am most familiar with and the group to which I belong. Those are the West London, Berks/Bucks communities (Southall, Slough, Langley, Reading etc); areas which also get high numbers of traveller visitations. It's a thing for us and is often discussed.

On your last part, I don't deny for a second that ITs suffer racism, nor do I wish it upon them. My lack of sympathy is more a lack of willingness to jump on this particular Urban bandwagon and ignore the treatment dealt out by them to us.

 

[Spymaster]

Yes. I've never said otherwise. I can say the same about quite a lot of groups if you'd like. Large groups of white people in East Anglia, for example. I do not, however, expand that to the point where I'm going to stop talking to anyone from East Anglia on the grounds that they're basically all like that (apart from hypothetical Good Ones) and spend my time slagging them off on threads about troubles in East Anglia.

If every time you went to East Anglia, you got spat on and screamed at, you wouldn't avoid East Anglia?

 

[Rob Ray]

My lack of sympathy is more a lack of willingness to jump on this particular Urban bandwago and ignore the treatment dealt out by them to us.

Alright passing by the obviously insurmountable "them/some of them" bit of it, can we move on to actually talk about Irish Travellers within the UK? Is that something you're interested in, or is the personal experience recounting all you wanted to do?

 

[Rob Ray]

If every time you went to East Anglia, you got spat on and screamed at, you wouldn't avoid East Anglia?

I'd absolutely avoid the streets it happened on. Would I avoid Norwich because I got spat on in Thurrock? No.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Alright passing by the obviously insurmountable "them/some of them" bit of it, can we move on to actually talk about Irish Travellers within the UK? Is that something you're interested in, or is the personal experience recounting all you wanted to do?

Fucking hell, how patronising.

You'd obviously rather talk theoretically than acknowledge people's lived experiences.

 

[brogdale]

I'm not attempting to speak for a whole ethnic group. I said 'many other British Asians'. In that I was referring to those that I am most familiar with and the group to which I belong. Those are the West London, Berks/Bucks communities (Southall, Slough, Langley, Reading etc); areas which also get high numbers of traveller visitations. It's a thing for us and is often discussed.

On your last part, I don't deny for a second that ITs suffer racism, nor do I wish it upon them. My lack of sympathy is more a lack of willingness to jump on this particular Urban bandwagon and ignore the treatment dealt out by them to us.

That's clear; good see that you accept that GRT suffer racism and this is something you would rather did not occur.

But I don't understand your description of this thread representing a "bandwagon", though. The OP has asked the valid question of whether this particular form of racism appears to represent the "last acceptable form of racism"? Contributing to that discussion hardly seems to be bandwagoning?

I've noticed that you've said that you personally have consciously avoided proximity to GRT for some time; does that place your family's examples of racism from this community in the past?