Racism towards Travellers in the UK

[Rob Ray]

He's talked extensively about his lived experiences. I've read them. I've acknowledged them. While I've disagreed on the degree to which he's extrapolated from them I've at no point dismissed them. What would you prefer, that I ask him to repeat them again? I'm asking what next.

 

[Spymaster]

I'd absolutely avoid the streets it happened on. Would I avoid Norwich because I got spat on in Thurrock? No.

What if you got spat on in Norwich and Thurrock, your cousins got spat on in Cambridge, Peterborough and Ipswich, and your mates got spat on in Bury St Edmonds? Would you still take a chance on Kings Lynn, or would you just decide to give it a miss?

 

[Rob Ray]

What if you got spat on in Norwich and Thurrock, your cousins got spat on in Cambridge, Peterborough and Ipswich, and your mates got spat on in Bury St Edmonds? Would you still take a chance on Kings Lynn, or would you just decide to give it a miss?

Well that's the thing isn't it, in reality Norwich is quite different to Thurrock (though both do have their share of racists). What you're doing there is precisely what I'm disagreeing with - seeing all of East Anglia as just a series of essentially interchangeable place names.

There are parts of Essex where I'd strongly recommend people from any non-British background watch their back, because the number of racists is so high. Big BNP voting region etc, where someone could easily grow up and assume horrific racism is absolutely standard, then extrapolate that to East Anglia as a whole. In fact lots of people do do that, and call themselves the silent majority.

 

[Spymaster]

Well that's the thing isn't it, in reality Norwich is quite different to Thurrock (though both do have their share of racists). What you're doing there is precisely what I'm disagreeing with - seeing all of East Anglia as just a series of essentially interchangeable place names.

I'm talking about avoiding being abused. I don't want to be spat at or injured. I don't care that some IT's won't abuse me, I care about the ones that will.

If I gave you a bucket of 10 snakes and told you that only 4 were venomous, would you put your hand in?

 

[bimble]

this is basically 'not all men' but with added righteousness, how tedious.

 

[xenon]

This thread is nuts. Spymaster to my reading is only saying he avoids Irish traveller communities because of his experiences. Not that he wishes them harm or racism against them as acceptable. Not even that he thinks every Irish traveller is a racist. What a load of handwringing toss the rest is. what are you actually trying to get him to agree to. that he should go and hang out on an Irish traveller site because you know otherwise he’s a racist.

 

[Rob Ray]

I've said repeatedly where I disagree with him, I've not asked him to "hang out with a traveller," and "not all men?" This is supposed to be a thread about racism towards travellers ffs. In which it's now several pages of people defending someone expressing their prejudice against travellers. And when I do try to move the conversation on I get accused of not wanting to talk about Spymaster's experiences. Ah fuck this I'm out, have fun with this train wreck.

 

[Spymaster]

I've noticed that you've said that you personally have consciously avoided proximity to GRT for some time; does that place your family's examples of racism from this community in the past?

Largely, yes. But that's more a result of us all getting older and moving out of the area. Most of us are in London now. There are occasional incidents still, but people actively avoid the sites and have learned to keep a distance. The main reason for the improvement though, is that many of the fields that used to get taken over have since been developed, so there are far fewer visitations than before.

 

[brogdale]

This thread is nuts. Spymaster to my reading is only saying he avoids Irish traveller communities because of his experiences. Not that he wishes them harm or racism against them as acceptable. Not even that he thinks every Irish traveller is a racist. What a load of handwringing toss the rest is. what are you actually trying to get him to agree to. that he should go and hang out on an Irish traveller site because you know otherwise he’s a racist.

Maybe so, but it's taken some discussion to discern that, tbh. In a thread asking the question of whether racism towards GRT is the "last acceptable form of racism" Spy did initially express no sympathy for the group in question and offered up stereotypical generalisations from the specifics of his personal experience. Subsequent discussion saw those positions clarified, but I can well see why some posters took exception to his earlier contributions to the thread that could have been interpreted as exactly the form of attitude being explored by the OP.

 

[Spymaster]

There are parts of Essex where I'd strongly recommend people from any non-British background watch their back, because the number of racists is so high.

But when I tell you that the number of racists I've experienced at IT camps is astronomical, it's not "watch your back" but "you fucking bigot".

 

[brogdale]

Largely, yes. But that's more a result of us all getting older and moving out of the area. Most of us are in London now. There are occasional incidents still, but people actively avoid the sites and have learned to keep a distance. The main reason for the improvement though, is that many of the fields that used to get taken over have since been developed, so there are far fewer visitations than before.

Or maybe people can change?

 

[Spymaster]

Or maybe people can change?

Maybe. But I've no reason to believe that to be the case.

 

[brogdale]

Maybe. But I've no reason to believe that to be the case.

Really?
Don't ethnic groups living in increasingly diverse communities have to realistically adopt some degree of 'multi-cultural conviviality'attitudes/behaviour for the sake of their own sanity/well-being?
Things change, don't they?

 

[bimble]

But when I tell you that the number of racists I've experienced at IT camps is astronomical, it's not "watch your back" but "you fucking bigot".

somewhere here is where an interesting conversation potentially lies, but sod that for a saturday afternoon.

 

[brogdale]

somewhere here is where an interesting conversation potentially lies, but sod that for a saturday afternoon.

The thread discussion seems interesting enough, tbh.

 

[brogdale]

FWIW, my own experience of racist attitudes towards Gypsies derives from the sticks/small (rural) market towns that used to experience seasonal inflows associated with hop-picking and fruit picking employment opportunities. Offering up my own generalisations from the specifics of what I heard/experienced, there tended to be a gulf in attitudes between those of us that worked alongside the Gypsies in the fields and those that had little or no direct contact.

 

[bimble]

It’s a thing so old and so widespread across Europe I think the answer to the question in the OP is quite probably a yes. It’s not long at all since their children were forcibly removed by the state in many countries.*

For some reason was reading recently about Romani children being (still now) segregated into separate classes in the Slovakian school system, which my dad who grew up there told me was happening back then, 2 generations ago, with him the Jewish kid put into the gypsy class, he had lots of stories about how the two minorities looked out for eachother cos nobody else would.

* eta still happening

‘They took my life. I’m grieving for a child who is still alive’ | Emily Goddard

New figures show a huge rise in Romany and Traveller families having their children taken away. It’s being blamed on institutional prejudice

www.theguardian.com

 

[newme]

FWIW, my own experience of racist attitudes towards Gypsies derives from the sticks/small (rural) market towns that used to experience seasonal inflows associated with hop-picking and fruit picking employment opportunities. Offering up my own generalisations from the specifics of what I heard/experienced, there tended to be a gulf in attitudes between those of us that worked alongside the Gypsies in the fields and those that had little or no direct contact.

We get some a few times a year doing the tree trimming thing, always a very polite guy in a old suit who does the talking and takes "Sorry mate its council" as you would expect anyone to and moves on. Few doing scrap which is very useful if you want to avoid paying for a council pickup and can get outside fast enough when you hear the bell. With a large amount not actually travelling about anymore you don't hear about them, there is barely reporting of good news, let alone none whatsoever. "Family goes on with life as usual" does not make much of a news story regardless of who it is about.

Only really see anything when a group has taken over some local facility, field, car park or whatever. Which is generally annoyance at the behaviour rather than anything racist. Of course look at any news section reporting on it and there is a lot of hate, but that also appears to be any comments section anywhere for anything.

 

[Spymaster]

Really?
Don't ethnic groups living in increasingly diverse communities have to realistically adopt some degree of 'multi-cultural conviviality'attitudes/behaviour for the sake of their own sanity/well-being?
Things change, don't they?

There's probably some truth in that but I've seen no evidence of it and my more recent experience of ITs was their camping on the cricket ground in Gunnersbury Park, tearing-up the Astro strips and leaving all manner of filth behind. Not much adoption of conviviality going on there then, so why should other attitudes have changed?

And what's your suggestion going to be? Should I try to become friendly with some on the off-chance that they might not be racists anymore?

 

[krtek a houby]

So you won’t answer it no.

You can answer it on the rw thread if you like

There's nothing to answer, your beef is rancid, disruptive and has zero to do with the thread.

 

[Shechemite]

There's nothing to answer, your beef is rancid, disruptive and has zero to do with the thread.

You’re well against cross thread beefs ain’t you Krtek?

You could answer it on the thread I asked it on some months ago then, but that will get in the way of your always the accuser never the accused routine. Silly twat

 

[krtek a houby]

I'm talking about avoiding being abused. I don't want to be spat at or injured. I don't care that some IT's won't abuse me, I care about the ones that will.

If I gave you a bucket of 10 snakes and told you that only 4 were venomous, would you put your hand in?

Again with the animals

 

[krtek a houby]

You’re well against cross thread beefs ain’t you Krtek?

You could answer it on the thread I asked it on some months ago then, but that will get in the way of your always the accuser never the accused routine. Silly twat

What has this to do with the thread about Travelers being discriminated against?

 

[Shechemite]

You could answer it on the thread I asked it on some months ago then

Because if you (and you’re in good company over here sadly) endlessly spout horrible hateful shit, the rest of the world may possibly take less of an interest in your equally endless whining that ‘the bigots are coming for meeeee’

 

[Spymaster]

Again with the animals

Shut up, fool.

 

[Shechemite]

Given the appalling history of GRT people being subject to eugenic policies (which continued in the glorious post war social democracies, and still even now, as per the grim realities Bimble shared upthread) you’d think the right side of history crowd might want to reflect on their comments on morons and idiots (and ‘dinlos’). But they won’t, they’ll keep on promoting the same hatred that has genocidal implications for (amongst others) GRT people, on a thread about hatred against GRT people no less.

 

[krtek a houby]

Shut up, fool.

This thread really is your finest moment.

Not sure you can top it.

 

[Shechemite]

Given the appalling history of GRT people being subject to eugenic policies (which continued in the glorious post war social democracies, and still even now, as per the grim realities Bimble shared upthread) you’d think the right side of history crowd might want to reflect on their comments on morons and idiots (and ‘dinlos’). But they won’t, they’ll keep on promoting the same hatred that has genocidal implications for (amongst others) GRT people, on a thread about hatred against GRT people no less.

This was on Netflix or Amazon or one of them previously. If still there it’s worth a watch

The Human Solution (2021) ⭐ 7.3 | Drama

1h 40m

www.imdb.com

 

[krtek a houby]

Because if you (and you’re in good company over here sadly) endlessly spout horrible hateful shit, the rest of the world may possibly take less of an interest in your equally endless whining that ‘the bigots are coming for meeeee’

No idea what you're on about. Am sure it makes sense to you.

 

[two sheds]

Given the appalling history of GRT people being subject to eugenic policies (which continued in the glorious post war social democracies, and still even now, as per the grim realities Bimble shared upthread) you’d think the right side of history crowd might want to reflect on their comments on morons and idiots (and ‘dinlos’). But they won’t, they’ll keep on promoting the same hatred that has genocidal implications for (amongst others) GRT people, on a thread about hatred against GRT people no less.

Errm are you referring to Spy? He seems to be the only one accusing someone of being an 'idiot' and 'moron' on the thread.