Pubs want to halve the two metre rule
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
At some point, we have to come out of lockdown. Denmark halved it's SD rule to 1 metre more than a week ago, and new cases have continued to fall there. In fact, countries like Denmark, Switzerland and Norway have all now implemented several stages of easing while their new cases have continued to fall. It can be done! It has to be done at some point.
LeytonCatLady
Well-Known Member
Yeah, a Portuguese mate of mine used to live quite near the Holloway Road and we'd often have a can of Stella together when we bumped into each other while I was busking there, which was a fairly frequent occurrence. I couldn't leave my busking spot and he didn't always have enough money to go to the pub. Anyway, one day an old geezer came along and shouted at us for drinking beer on the street (cheeky bastard). Luis (my friend) said he couldn't understand the British attitude to street drinking, as people do that in Portugal all the time and it's not an issue - no more antisocial than drinking a can of Coke. I've always felt that banning stuff doesn't solve issues anyway, people will just carry on doing it illegally and it creates unnecessary work for police and councils who could be focusing on genuine crime/antisocial behaviour etc. It's just an excuse to fine more people to get revenue up, but that's a whole 'nother rant.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
There is also a fair bit of overreach with councils and police forces when it comes to no drinking areas. The standard notification is of a 'controlled drinking' area. That doesn't mean you can't drink. It means you must stop drinking if a copper tells you to. Small but important difference.
LeytonCatLady
Well-Known Member
I remember asking this busybody for his ID, and he said he wasn't from the police/council. I replied "Exactly, so mind your own business then!" He didn't look pleased at that, but did back off. Me and Luis also found it amusing that he was addressing his "Drinking beer is bad" lecture directly to me and acting like Luis wasn't there (blatant double standards!) I'd had to send him packing the previous week too when he demanded to know if I had a licence to be busking there (he was equally pissed off when I kindly told him about the 2003 Licensing Act which states that busking is exempt). He's always round the Holloway Road telling people off. But I guess that's the British High Street...
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
The whole banning street drinking thing was originally more to do with drunks in shopping precincts, kids drinking in parks smashing things up on Friday and Saturday nights as I recall. Then overzealous councils and NIMBY type residents extending it to outside pubs , this was then exacerbated by the smoking ban along with the no signs /boards on pavements trend. Controlled drinking areas make some sense imo.
I always felt a lot of these no drinking bylaws in urban areas were specifically targeted at the alki's that spend their days drinking strong lager, swearing, fighting and pissing themselves. It gave the Police a means to get them to move on without doing them for D&D.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It started in Coventry, irrc. Should have stayed there imo, but I can see some sense to the controlled areas where there's been trouble. But many places have tried to turn controlled drinking areas into no drinking areas, often exceeding their authority in doing so.
LeytonCatLady
Well-Known Member
Yes, there needs to be common sense applied, as with all things. There's a difference between someone so pissed they can't walk and screaming abuse at passers-by, and two friends sitting with their drinks on a bench just having a chat and not bothering anybody.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It's also another stick to beat people with. In St Leonard's they have rules of dubious legality banning drinking on parts of the sea front. That's a place alkis often go to get drunk in peace, away from everyone. Coppers regularly patrol and move them on. It's just petty and vindictive.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
We used them in Stockport at asb hotspots
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
The fear/doubt thing is everywhere, even here where they've handled the virus very well. The bars here are open but despite the governments message that there is a cautious step to normality and the fact that the Portuguese are very sociable people there isn't as many people using them at the moment . Last night the people I was sitting with were saying that they thought the bars would close again because of the virus . We sat a little further apart than we used to but there's no way you can sit two metres away and have a conversation which is what most bars are about. I've been in 3 or 4 conversations where locals are saying that the people from Porto and Lisbon shouldn't be allowed to come to the beaches here.
cupid_stunt
Merry fecking Christmas.
That's strange, because the whole of Worthing borough is subject to a 'Public Space Protection Order' covering drinking, including the beach, but the police are reasonable about it, only getting involved if there's anti-social behaviour.
From the council website -
Ms Ordinary
randompointlesschemistry
It's 1.5m in Germany, I think, and I've heard that in Berlin at least, that means people regularly get too close. (This was someone describing a hipster street market, so probably their equivalent of our London Fields)
If 1m is the actual 'safe' distance then I feel much better if people are aiming for 2m...
One the other hand, Germany gets a thumbs up from me, for it's civilised enshrinement of the
Wegbier as a basic right.
Ms Ordinary
randompointlesschemistry
Yes, me too, but the other thing is I want all the good pubs to survive this & reopen eventually.
I wonder with opening with adequate social distancing some might even lose money by reopening? Question then is do we care enough to support them financially, either while they're closed, or with higher prices if they reopen at low capacity.
Support the pubs that is, not the (worst of) the breweries...
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
That is an example of the way controlled drinking zones are supposed to work. It's not like that in St Leonard's. Specifically SL - it's different down the road in Hastings. And that's why I say it has dubious legality. Coppers are not reasonable about it, imo. Even in the middle of winter with nobody else about, I've seen them march up to people sat on a bench minding their own business to take their drinks off them.
At some point it does, yes, but the UK has been much worse affected than any of those countries (thanks in large part, of course, to the Johnson government's dishonesty and incompetence) and infections are still running at a pretty high level. It's premature to ease restrictions here, IMO.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
dk which pubs you've been going to, ones at the more genteel end of the spectrum no doubtAnyone think that pubs will put on security or even enough staff to cope with people not distancing?
I know that the British public are usually well behaved and respectful in pubs but still
2hats
Dust.
Spot the difference:
Denmark - well under 100 new cases per day for several days now.
UK - still thousands of new cases per day (and that's with insufficient testing, so several times that in reality)
Effective test, trace, isolate will need low numbers of 'suspects' otherwise it will rapidly fall apart.
LeytonCatLady
Well-Known Member
Reminds me of this quote from a copper in Irvine Welsh's Filth novel: "Ye cannae criminalise people for a consumer preference! May as well jail them for preferring Allbran to Cornflakes. Fuckin' nonsense." (Strictly about drugs, not drink, but that's what alcohol-related PSPOs boil down to, as well as being a postcode lottery).
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
did you ask the copper for a receipt?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Well the other point to make about the places I mentioned is that the easing isn't coming after a speech to the nation by the PM the night before. It's following well-publicised plans that were put in place well in advance.
Switzerland was hit hard, btw. It just dealt with it sooooo much better.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I imagine that every pub will be different tbh. One of he penalties for not complying could be a license review so the stakes are high.Anyone think that pubs will put on security or even enough staff to cope with people not distancing?
I know that the British public are usually well behaved and respectful in pubs but still
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Multiply the Danish figure by at least 10 to compare with the UK. But yes of course, it was far less badly hit and is currently in a far better place. It reopened schools weeks ago, mind you, when its new cases were a lot higher, and Switzerland was in a similar place to the UK currently wrt new cases and hospitalisation rates when it announced its first plans. Does the UK even have a plan beyond 'let things fall apart by themselves'?
2hats
Dust.
Well no (even scaled per capita there is still something like an order of magnitude disparity). The relevant comparison is numbers of adequately trained persons in the test, trace, isolate roles.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
I
I have a mask like that. For when I'm forced onto the tube.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Currently, yes. Not when they reopened the schools.
By comparison, the UK's announcements, such as that for school reopening, seem more like an aspirations than plans.
(And presumably you meant to say 'well yes' to my point about multiplying by 10. It's actually more like 11.something.)
With the stakes being high I would think staying 2m apart as a rule is the least the pubs can do.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Cant honestly see many pubs being able to run commercially with a 2m rule tbh unless they've got a very large beer garden.then youve got potential issues like can you have members of the same houshold on the same table, how do you prove they are?
Here its mostly 2m inside as guidance to customers, capacity limits inside by licensing. Tables two metres apart , guidance of four at a table. Most bars order at bar with mask and either bring drinks or they are brought to table. Masks not required outside .Its a case of experiment at the moment.
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