Polly Toynbee # 1 "Of course the wealthy want an immigration free-for-all"

[mk12]

"Sylvia was against a woman's right to vote? Don't be daft"

i didn't say that she just fought for the interests of w/c women. She understood the class differences between women in the movement, not claiming it was one homogenous group. Like the SWP see the muslim community as.

 

[levien]

This is the problem with a rejection of a totality veiw of Marxism Matt. You can't just pick the bits you like and leave the bits you don't or any form of anaylsis and tactics disapper. Leaving you arguing against defending the Muslim community from oppression weeks after a massive rightwing media campaign against Islam as a breeding ground for terror. and against demands for womens rights on the ground we should only campaign for w/c women...

 

[mk12]

This is the problem with a rejection of a totality veiw of Marxism Matt.

I reject your interpretation of Marxism, not Marxism.

Do you think black people becoming managers is a success for black liberation?

 

[levien]

Read the prophet and the proletariate by Harmen then come back. (perhaps read class struggle and womens liberation by cliff as well.)

or don't coment on a position you haven't taken the time to read or understand.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Do you think black people becoming managers is a success for black liberation?

Yes! A hundred times yes. And women priests. And gays in the army. Yes.

 

[levien]

Oh my god matt please stop.

The fact that the liberation movements got divorced from the class struggle after the defeats of the 70's and diverted into middle class politics was a bad thing. The fact that black liberation struggles won some social mobility for the black community will have opened up some chances for w/c black people. Supporting the struggle of the oppressed doesn't mean you have to drop arguing for class politics within it.

 

[mk12]

but do you think it's a step forward for black liberation that there are more black people in management positions now?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

but do you think it's a step forward for black liberation that there are more black people in management positions now?

Is it good that there are now black ministers in south africa? Yes. Has it made the lives of black workers materailly better. No not really. But it has boosted their confidence that they are no longer second class citizens in their own country. This is basic stuff for a marxist. Tribunes of the oppressed?

 

[treelover]

The problem is that as what happened with the wider feminist movement such a campaign largely becomes one for middle class women by middle class women: I'm sure the 'glass ceiling' wasn't the most important thing to early working class feminists.

matt- a 'class analysis' requires a little more than simply using the words 'class analysis'.ferfuckssake, a campaign for the right to divorce is a campaign for the right for all to divorce, if middle class women want to join such a campaign, fine.
Reply With Quote

 

[belboid]

absolutely treelover, I'd agree with that entirely - its gone from being a movement for womens liberation to a movement for 'equality' within the current set up - an equality which would, at best, leave most women as poorly off as most men.

 

[The Black Hand]

But surely you're giving up a class analysis and diverting your attention to something that does not forward the struggle for socialism at all. Of course a m/c women in Ireland has a right to divorce. But should you have started a campaign - "give middle class women the right to divorce?!"

I'm saying that rich women and w/c women have different interests. Their ideas of women's emancipation will be completely different.

Otherwise you'll end up like Yasmin Alibai-Brown, cheering about how there has been a surge of black management jobs. Woo hoo! Black people can exploit the majority now too!

Got to say that yours is not a Marxist position, and to prove it, here's Marx himself, 1844;

"No class in civil society can play this part unless it can arouse, in itself and in the masses, a moment of enthusiasm in which it associates and mingles with society at large, identifies itself with it, and is felt and recognised as the general representative of this society. its aims and interests must genuinely be the aims and interests of society itself, of which it becomes in reality the social head [ideas] and heart [emotions]. It is only in the name of general interests that a particular class can claim general supremecy [meaning greatest]."

[We participate in] "actual struggles, and identify ourselves with them. Then we do not face the world in doctrinaire fashion with a new principle, declaring, "here is the truth, kneel here!". We develop new principles for the world out of principles of the world. We do not tell the world, "Cease your struggles, they are stupid; we want to give you the true watchword of the struggle." We merely show the world why it actually struggles; and the awareness of this is something the world must acquire even if it does not want to."

 

[mk12]

not sure how that proves mine's not a marxist position

 

[The Black Hand]

not sure how that proves mine's not a marxist position

Its to do with general interests pal....

 

[mk12]

"its aims and interests must genuinely be the aims and interests of society itself"

Not sure how women directors getting hundreds of thousands of pounds is in the interest of society.

 

[danny la rouge]

Another racist thread. Shame.

The entire thread is racist? Or just in parts? And when you talk about a "lefty and his pals" being crypto racists, who do you mean? Names and examples please.

As far as I could see we were coming to an agreement that solidarity, unionisation, and working class unity and mutual aid was the way forward. Is that racist? Of course the thread has gone way off course now. I hope it regains direction.

 

[treelover]

Trying to close down debate, bolshie boy, but what else what can we expect from unreconstructed Trots?

Originally Posted by bolshiebhoy
Another racist thread. Shame.

 

[danny la rouge]

I don't know if you've been about bolshie, but give some consideration to answering my previous post, please. You see I don't think it's really on to spray about words like 'racist' without being careful how you're applying them. And that will usually mean having the courage to be specific about to whom you are applying them.

If it's meant sincerely, you shouldn't have a problem with that.

 

[The Black Hand]

"its aims and interests must genuinely be the aims and interests of society itself"

Not sure how women directors getting hundreds of thousands of pounds is in the interest of society.

Did you think about what you write at all? You don't appear too, you missed the barn door, again.

The point is trying to establish principles eg. equal rights for all women, and those definately are in the aims/interests of society itself.

 

[durruti02]

At the turn of the last century in France and in America the syndicalist unions fought back at the bringing in of immigrants to undercut wages and to be used as strike breakers. But they did it by welcoming migrant workers into their homes. That way the immigrants didn't want to undercut the host working class communities. This is solidarity in action, and it worked to the advantage of both communities. And both communities recognised their common class bonds outweighed the divisions the capitalists had hoped to play on. Another effect was that the pull of migrant workers into those communities lessened.

Capitalists in America in particular learned, and in successive decades got their defence in first with propoganda painting union organisers and activists as foreign, lazy and 'Other', setting up a false unity of "us", the American factory boss/non unionised worker/honest hard worker versus the lazy/foreign/wants to disrupt "our" livelihood/anarchist. Divide and rule at its best. And in those circumstances of mistrust of unions and outsiders, migrant workers could be brought in to undercut wages once more.

There is no reason that I can see that the syndicalist response of my first paragraph cannot be made to work today. It also seems to me that what we have currently is a situation more like my second paragraph.

interesting post .. but yes how would it work nowadays?

and p.s that was not the ONLY thing they did was it!!!

and clearly it is very important to oppose the stigmatising/racialising the bosses will use to divide and rule .. but to do this without acknowledging there is an issue, as the left do nowadays, is couterproductive

 

[durruti02]

Read the prophet and the proletariate by Harmen then come back. (perhaps read class struggle and womens liberation by cliff as well.)

or don't coment on a position you haven't taken the time to read or understand.

lolarof!!! so you don't know harman then?? and what he thought about womens 'liberation' ??

 

[durruti02]

Another racist thread. Shame.

i asked you before .. are you saying i am racist? if so please show where when and how ..

it seems with divisive, MK, treelover, hawk RMP3 and danny la rouge among many others saying that is not the case ( or are they racist too??? ), and also generally agreeing on a workerist way forward you are in a shrinking minorty with bellboy and TJ and a couple of others ..

 

[durruti02]

I know. I know. They're getting everywhere aren't they? I'll walk into my local in Swindon tonight and the table staff will be Polish. In Swindon for goodness sakes. It's just not on!

'This' as you call it is people deciding to move around the planet. Good luck to them.

and this is where you show yourself to be no marxist

marxists understand that in a capitalist society/economy what goes on is dictated by capitalism ( or currently what they call neo liberalism what i still call thatcherism ) ..

and when we see large scale economic things like the current mass migration we look at it thru that framework

and it clearly/obviously shows up as, NOT , as you call it " .. people deciding to move around the planet.." but as part of a neo liberal process to underrcut wages and w/c organisation here .. (as was shown clearly at Irish Ferries and Gate Gourmet and on a lesser scale in a thousend other workplaces )

it benefits the bosses and middle class employers ad does nothing for the rest of us ..

bolshie? no just liberal

 

[belboid]

a shrinking minorty with bellboy and TJ and a couple of others ..

when have I called you racist dickhead?

All I doc is disagree with your pie in the sky fantasies, and your pretence that you are offering any kind of 'new' solution.

oh, and your relying on right-wing dickheadds to back up your arguments.

or, to be briefer, fuck off.

 

[durruti02]

when have I called you racist dickhead?

All I doc is disagree with your pie in the sky fantasies, and your pretence that you are offering any kind of 'new' solution.

oh, and your relying on right-wing dickheadds to back up your arguments.

or, to be briefer, fuck off.

how the fck is what i am arguing pie in the sky .. it is just basic trade unionism .. yes it is NOT new .. its just what with iraq/lebanon etc etc you lot seem to have lost sight of it ..

oh i forgot yer trot mates think trade unionism is reactionary

so how do you like digby jones supportting you?

 

[belboid]

So you can't find anywhere where I called you a racist. Another lie from you then. And then you add another in too.

It's the signs of a desperate man who's losing the argument.

 

[danny la rouge]

and clearly it is very important to oppose the stigmatising/racialising the bosses will use to divide and rule .. but to do this without acknowledging there is an issue, as the left do nowadays, is couterproductive

How could you do it without acknowledging there's an issue? Divide and rule, and use of migrants as cheap and potential scab labour can clearly only be tackled if you acknowledge that.

 

[durruti02]

How could you do it without acknowledging there's an issue? Divide and rule, and use of migrants as cheap and potential scab labour can clearly only be tackled if you acknowledge that.

absolutly bruv .. but find me a copy of SW where they even talk about it .. there was NOTHING at Marxism about it either ..

SW and friends on U75 have made it clear that 1) there is no issue and 2) what issue there is is part of an ideological attack by the right and must be countered by anti -racism .. FFS

and meanwhile i get accussed of talking BNP , starting racist threads etc etc etc pathetic

 

[durruti02]

So you can't find anywhere where I called you a racist. Another lie from you then. And then you add another in too.

It's the signs of a desperate man who's losing the argument.

never did say you you had said that .. i just said above (19/8) that you were in a shrinking minorty of lefty liberals .. see qoute below ..

" ...it seems with divisive, MK, treelover, hawk, RMP3 and danny la rouge among many ... ( or are they racist too??? ), and .. generally agreeing on a workerist way forward you are in a shrinking minorty with bellboy and TJ and a couple of others .."

is all .. methinks its you today not reading posts properly

 

[durruti02]

and bellboy so what do you think off Digby Jones pro immigration arguments ????

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/ma...GAVCBQYIV0?xml=/money/2006/08/20/ccimmi20.xml

..Pride and prejudice about immigration
By Sir Digby Jones
(Filed: 20/08/2006)

We do immigration well. Certainly not perfectly, but better than anywhere else I know. And business benefits hugely. Stop immigration and you stop building houses, schools, hospitals, roads and offices in the UK. If "they" were to "go home", you can forget this year's harvest in our fields. In a tourism industry that contributes some 8 per cent of the nation's wealth, 17 per cent of the workforce was not born in the UK.

The influx of east Europeans since 2004 has helped. Only the UK, Sweden and Ireland showed by their actions that they were true Europeans. Wasn't the EU meant to be about the free movement of goods (talk to the French about British beef), services (talk to the Germans about banks and insurers), capital (talk to the Spanish about overseas firms buying into their infrastructure companies) and labour?

You cannot blame a migrant for being prepared to work hard for the minimum wage. It is not the migrant's fault that so many in western Europe have become lazy, complacent and picky. We live in a world where China wants your lunch and India wants your dinner - and either work is done at competitive rates here or it's not done here at all.

We have a tight labour market in the UK and yet wage inflation has not been a problem. Immigrants are doing the work for less. If they were to leave the country, interest rates would probably rise to deal with the ensuing wage inflation. As a result, some economists estimate that the average mortgage in Britain would go up by as much as £500 a year.

The world does not owe us a living - the world is our living.

 

[nino_savatte]

Don't you and yer pal balders ever get tired of repeating yourself? All you can do is crap on about immigration, when all the while you are pushing a hidden discourse of racism and xenophobia.

Another thread with transparently obvious motives.

I've laced up me docs.