Polly Toynbee # 1 "Of course the wealthy want an immigration free-for-all"

[Hawkeye Pearce]

Oh wake up mate. There is no mass movement that is a serious challenge to capitalism in this country, hasn't been for decades. The immigration issue is merely one issue which has shown up how the left has failed, you could pick also on work place organisation, the anti war movement to demonstrate how what is regarded as the left simply is not relevant to most people in this country. The saddest thing about this is that the system parties are almost totally discredited and yet no-one on the left is connecting with the way people lead their lives.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

today's topcs seem more relevant to 'ordinary' people, don't they? the "mass movement" only concerns 'activists', whereas immigration concerns a whole lot more of the population. In that sense it's more representative of society on here. Although I wish some of the posters you mentioned still posted here.

Oh please. When lefties just ape the prejudices of the 'silent majority' I wanna chuck.

 

[mk12]

But immigration is an issue for most people in the UK today. Building the "mass movement" isn't. I think it's good this issue is discussed on here. And I disagree - I think durruti and tbaldwin are coming for a left wing perspective - supporting workers' rights and arguing for more workers' control. Although I don't necessarily agree with them 100%, I think it's wrong to say they are 'racist' and of the right.

 

[levien]

Like the huge organising for fighting Union's conference called by Respect? Or the defend council housing battles in East London, fighting to defend service ain poor (and incidently white) areas of Preston?

How has the left gained the implantation and (admittedly shallow and sectional) roots to achieve this. Oh yes the anti-war movement. A movement which is starting to crack open the LP - the main party of neo-liberal attacks in the UK. A process which if combined with a mass movement against war and neo-liberalism will open up a massive space for pro-w/c grass roots politics. But only if ibased on support and organisation for those in the muslim (and immigrant) communities, the most isolated and oppressed communities within the UK.

 

[levien]

But immigration is an issue for most people in the UK today. Building the "mass movement" isn't. I think it's good this issue is discussed on here. And I disagree - I think durruti and tbaldwin are coming for a left wing perspective - supporting workers' rights and arguing for more workers' control. Although I don't necessarily agree with them 100%, I think it's wrong to say they are 'racist' and of the right.

Dressing up anti-immigrant shite in the language of the left just makes it all the more disgusting matt. It's shocking how far your politics have shifted since leaving the SWP.

 

[Hawkeye Pearce]

Someone on another thread said that the situation in this country could soon begin to resemble the US situation, with migrants being used by bosses in order to try and divide and rule, especially in any time of economic downturn. Thats why i've been arguing for campaigns to build solidarity, not increasing the power of the state. This issue is important as it has simply not adequately been addressed by anybody on the left.

 

[levien]

<waves>

Its time to regroup and take back P&P. Jesus I get a job which takes up a bit more time and the world falls apart...

 

[levien]

Someone on another thread said that the situation in this country could soon begin to resemble the US situation, with migrants being used by bosses in order to try and divide and rule, especially in any time of economic downturn. Thats why i've been arguing for campaigns to build solidarity, not increasing the power of the state. This issue is important as it has simply not adequately been addressed by anybody on the left.

Fair enough. We differ on how to achieve these campaigns but that is what Urban used to be about discussing.

Anyone raising Durrutti's arguements would once have been meet by universal derision here by posters on both sides of this debate.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

muslim (and immigrant) communities, the most isolated and oppressed communities within the UK.

Mate, muslims in Britain are not oppressed

 

[Divisive Cotton]

liberalism is worth defending

at least we know where you are coming from

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Mate, muslims in Britain are not oppressed

 

[bolshiebhoy]

at least we know where you are coming from

Would you mind not quoting half my sentence please you idiot?

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Would you mind not quoting half my sentence please you idiot?

if you make a stupid statement you get a stupid response

 

[bolshiebhoy]

if you make a stupid statement you get a stupid response

I'll make it again then just to piss you off. Liberal ideals are worth defending against the right. Which includes you, durruti and that new labour chancer.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

I'll make it again then just to piss you off. Liberal ideals are worth defending against the right. Which includes you, durruti and that new labour chancer.

*burp*

I'll say it again - make a stupid statement and you get a stupid response

 

[mk12]

Dressing up anti-immigrant shite in the language of the left just makes it all the more disgusting matt. It's shocking how far your politics have shifted since leaving the SWP.

But what they are arguing for is what marx argued for with regards to german workers coming here. I don't think you can determine whether someone is left or right based on their views on immigration. There are plenty of capitalists who agree with you on the free movement of labour. It doesn't make them left-wing.

Oh, and muslims are not a homogenous community. I think it's a bit patronising and insulting to suggest they are. "muslims are oppressed". And where's your class analysis - rather than separating society into different 'communities'.

 

[belboid]

well, i'd have to pout that down to a lack of politics then matt, sorry.

Are you going to deny that women are oppressed now? On the basis that there's a Queen, so 'women' cant be?

 

[Divisive Cotton]

well, i'd have to pout that down to a lack of politics then matt, sorry.

Are you going to deny that women are oppressed now? On the basis that there's a Queen, so 'women' cant be?

What about muslim women - are they opressed? - if so, who oppressed them?

 

[mk12]

well, there are women who are oppressed, and women who aren't oppressed. Just like some muslims are oppressed, some aren't. I don't think it's useful having all these oppressions lined up side by side, with class as another one. It stinks of guardian type liberalism when people argue this. When it's class that undercuts all of these "oppressions". A working class women is oppressed - not Thatcher or women on boards of companies.

 

[belboid]

What about muslim women - are they opressed? - if so, who oppressed them?

of course they are,l doubly so probably. And yes within their own 'community' as well as by 'outsiders'

well, there are women who are oppressed, and women who aren't oppressed. Just like some muslims are oppressed, some aren't. I don't think it's useful having all these oppressions lined up side by side, with class as another one. It stinks of guardian type liberalism when people argue this. When it's class that undercuts all of these "oppressions". A working class women is oppressed - not Thatcher or women on boards of companies.

a woman on a board of governors can of course be oppressed, as was Thatcher at times. Have you not read any of the stories about well off women suing for sexual discrimination in their workplaces? Even tho they are overpaid tosspots, they can still be oppressed you know. As well! They may very well be willing to put up with that oppression cos of the wider benefits they receive, but it doesnt stop them being opressed.

 

[mk12]

so what though? Should we fight for Thatcher and co? Their interests are completely different to working class women's interests. The thing that divides them is class. These women just want similar benefits to rich blokes and politicians don't they?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

so what though? Should we fight for Thatcher and co? Their interests are completely different to working class women's interests. The thing that divides them is class. These women just want similar benefits to rich blokes and politicians don't they?

So a middle class woman in Ireland doesn't have a right to divorce/abortion? A rich jew on the way to the gas chambers wasn't worthy of defending? Have you left the swp only to refound the 80's Militant or what?

 

[mk12]

But surely you're giving up a class analysis and diverting your attention to something that does not forward the struggle for socialism at all. Of course a m/c women in Ireland has a right to divorce. But should you have started a campaign - "give middle class women the right to divorce?!"

I'm saying that rich women and w/c women have different interests. Their ideas of women's emancipation will be completely different.

Otherwise you'll end up like Yasmin Alibai-Brown, cheering about how there has been a surge of black management jobs. Woo hoo! Black people can exploit the majority now too!

 

[belboid]

so what tho? dear god!

Why are they oppressed matt? It's because they are women, and because of the role that capital determines they must play within capitalist society. Opposing womens oppression does de facto mean opposing it for all women.

Of course working class women suffer more and we shoud prioritise those concerns, but that doesnt mean we are completely indifferent to better off womens' concerns. The cases of vile sexism against some of those scummy stock market traders will have knock on effects for all women in those companies dont forget. Maybe not massive ones, and they wont gain as much as some of the (frankly sick) amounts that the traders are paid off with, but it still matters.

 

[belboid]

But surely you're giving up a class analysis and diverting your attention to something that does not forward the struggle for socialism at all. Of course a m/c women in Ireland has a right to divorce. But should you have started a campaign - "give middle class women the right to divorce?!"

matt- a 'class analysis' requires a little more than simply using the words 'class analysis'.
ferfuckssake, a campaign for the right to divorce is a campaign for the right for all to divorce, if middle class women want to join such a campaign, fine.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

But surely you're giving up a class analysis and diverting your attention to something that does not forward the struggle for socialism at all. Of course a m/c women in Ireland has a right to divorce. But should you have started a campaign - "give middle class women the right to divorce?!"

Eh no actually. You say 'give all women the right to divorce'. Now I happen to believe that these oppressions can only be ended by the working class. But you do uor side a disservice by denying the existance of the oppression in the first place. Yes we all know it's mediated by a person's class position. But it exists.

 

[mk12]

matt- a 'class analysis' requires a little more than simply using the words 'class analysis'.
ferfuckssake, a campaign for the right to divorce is a campaign for the right for all to divorce, if middle class women want to join such a campaign, fine.

but what about the fight for the women's vote - you could see the struggles within that movement between different classes of women.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

but what about the fight for the women's vote - you could see the struggles within that movement between different classes of women.

And therefore the left shouldn't have supported the fight for a woman's right to vote? Any woman.

 

[mk12]

No - sylvia pankhurst created a working class women's paper - and independent paper for w/c women -arguing for w/c women's interests.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

No - sylvia pankhurst created a working class women's paper - and independent paper for w/c women -arguing for w/c women's interests.

Sylvia was against a woman's right to vote? Don't be daft. How you fight the oppression is a different matter. Denying it is economism gone silly.