Photo ID now a requirement to vote in the UK

[StakerOne]

StakerOne To take part in one of these blockchain votes. Do you have to go to the Polling Station and disenfranchise the ill and infirm or do it from home where the overbearing head of the household can watch over you and make sure you vote the 'right' way?

Please explain for us state-obsessed thickos the steps of voting on the blockchain or at least, how you envisage it?

NoXion if you are the thickest person Stakerone knows, that insult must cut pretty deep. (((NoXion)))

There is a reason why the French force everyone to vote in front of election officials and observers ... so to prove they haven't been coerced.

I am all for money being spent to get a team of election officials and observers to the voter, if the voter can't get polling station.

I am for the secret ballot.

You on the other hand couldn't give a fuck because you're an arrogant sanctomonious fuck-wit that is so up your own arse, that you think that everything should be on the menu, because you honestly believe that the left is so morally superior, that election fraud is fair game.

To you, voters are either thick or immoral so if they voted the wrong way, their votes shouldn't count.

You're a fucking fraud who isn't talking in good faith.

You're not remotely interested in free and fair elections, with people's rights being protected.

I'm open to all sorts of ideas about how those who can't get to the polling station, should be able to vote, especially if that vote is secret.

You on the other hand, aren't remotely interested in whether people get their secret ballot or not.

There is no secret vote with postal ballots because everyone else in the household knows when the ballot papers are landing.

 

[NoXion]

The system is shit shit shit shit. Oh and bit more shit. It's wide open to abuse. But that's OK according to some here, because there's no election observers in my household to record wrong-doing so it never happened!

Because that's the only way to detect if a postal vote has been coerced? I doubt that.

 

[8ball]

Maybe they should get rid of in-person voting since it involves a lot of hassle, takes up various church halls and whatever that could be used for something else on that day, and no doubt involves significant carbon emissions.

 

[NoXion]

To you, voters are either thick or immoral so if they voted the wrong way, their votes shouldn't count.

Says the guy who wants to withdraw the right to vote from people who cannot make it to a polling station.

 

[Storm Fox]

There is a reason why the French force everyone to vote in front of election officials and observers ... so to prove they haven't been coerced.

I am all for money being spent to get a team of election officials and observers to the voter, if the voter can't get polling station.

I am for the secret ballot.

You on the other hand couldn't give a fuck because you're an arrogant sanctomonious fuck-wit that is so up your own arse, that you think that everything should be on the menu, because you honestly believe that the left is so morally superior, that election fraud is fair game.

To you, voters are either thick or immoral so if they voted the wrong way, their votes shouldn't count.

You're a fucking fraud who isn't talking in good faith.

You're not remotely interested in free and fair elections, with people's rights being protected.

I'm open to all sorts of ideas about how those who can't get to the polling station, should be able to vote, especially if that vote is secret.

You on the other hand, aren't remotely interested in whether people get their secret ballot or not.

There is no secret vote with postal ballots because everyone else in the household knows when the ballot papers are landing.

How does a blockchain based voting system help? You failed to answer that.

It's almost like adding blockchain onto a system would add complexity and cost.

You don't seem worried about disenfranchising those who cannot get to a polling station. But let's assume everyone who wants to vote can get taken to a polling station. In a blockchain based voting system, what's to stop the software sitting above the blockchain changing the vote just like any other electronic based system.

 

[8ball]

Oops, just found this lying about…

Blockchain for Electronic Voting System—Review and Open Research Challenges

Online voting is a trend that is gaining momentum in modern society. It has great potential to decrease organizational costs and increase voter turnout. It eliminates the need to print ballot papers or open polling stations—voters can vote from ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

<not wanting to advocate it, obv - I like the little pencils and badly-concealed sexual tension that we get with our current system>

 

[brogdale]

How does a blockchain based voting system help? You failed to answer that.

It's almost like adding blockchain onto a system would add complexity and cost.

You don't seem worried about disenfranchising those who cannot get to a polling station. But let's assume everyone who wants to vote can get taken to a polling station. In a blockchain based voting system, what's to stop the software sitting above the blockchain changing the vote just like any other electronic based system.

Yes, one of the biggest guarantors against electoral fraud is the observation of physical ballot counting.

 

[SpookyFrank]

How does a blockchain based voting system help? You failed to answer that.

It's almost like adding blockchain onto a system would add complexity and cost.

You don't seem worried about disenfranchising those who cannot get to a polling station. But let's assume everyone who wants to vote can get taken to a polling station. In a blockchain based voting system, what's to stop the software sitting above the blockchain changing the vote just like any other electronic based system.

I doubt he knows what a blockchain is. Generally the more fanatical someone is about a thing, the less they know about it. And that goes double for tech stuff.

 

[StakerOne]

Because that's the only way to detect if a postal vote has been coerced? I doubt that.

There is NO way of knowing a postal vote has been coerced without there being consequences for the voter, so you never know.

Solution : You have a secret fucking ballot, no postal votes, at least for those who don't need them.

 

[8ball]

There is NO way of knowing a postal vote has been coerced without there being consequences for the voter, so you never know.

There would be ways of investigating such things.

 

[brogdale]

There is NO way of knowing a postal vote has been coerced without there being consequences for the voter, so you never know.

Solution : You have a secret fucking ballot, no postal votes, at least for those who don't need them.

But as long as you do accept that, for the sake of inclusivity, some cohorts would need to cast their vote remotely, the electronic means would appear to have no advantage over the PV.

 

[StakerOne]

Yes, one of the biggest guarantors against electoral fraud is the observation of physical ballot counting.

In the blockchain world, the code is run on thousands of computers, so anyone who knows the technology, knows that there is integrity there, so it negates the need for physical ballot counting.

The only way a count could go wrong, is for the smart contract code to be wrong, but such code would be as short, simple and sweet as possible and well tested before deployment. I wouldn't expect the core smart contract code to ever be changed after that - for the very same reasons banks still have Cobol code from the 1970s still knocking about.

 

[NoXion]

There is NO way of knowing a postal vote has been coerced without there being consequences for the voter, so you never know.

Solution : You have a secret fucking ballot, no postal votes, at least for those who don't need them.

It seems that a number of democratic countries like Canada, the US, Germany, Poland, Switzerland and Austria disagree with you about the integrity of postal votes, since you keep bringing up France as an example. They're able to make it work and you've shown no evidence to the contrary, indeed you claim that any such evidence is impossible to find. You're very good at shooting your own arguments in the head.

 

[StakerOne]

There would be ways of investigating such things.

Not without consequences for the voter. If ANYTHING happens to the bad actor, the voter is out on the street.

The problem is solved by no one having postal votes unless they absolutely need it, but even then I wouldn't be happy because those who still have PVs aren't immune from coersion.

I don't understand why you feel that people who don't need postal votes, should have postal votes.

What's wrong with the able bodied going down to the polling station and voting for themselves?

It's too dangerous.

I've done an awful lot of canvassing in my time, looking to register voters who aren't already registered and those who weren't on the marked register (voted at the last election) and do you know what the biggest thing is that stops people voting?

"I've never been to a polling station and I don't know what to do, so I'm afraid I'll feel like a right useless cunt when I walk in and ask people what to do. I'm just so embarassed that people will laugh at me because I don't know how to vote" - Honestly that's it.

And postal votes have made that way worse. The damage can't be calculated.

There's going to be a tonne of people who aren't very good literacy wise, including those where English is either a second language or not known at all.

The voter will turn to another household member for help to fill in the postal ballot and it will be "oh and you put a cross next to this party here because they're the only ones looking out for us ....."

Since postal voting for all has come in, there will be a huge chunk of voters who have NEVER been to a polling station and they are in no hurry to go down there. A subset of those, would have given away their postal vote to someone else and don't want any trouble.

That all has to stop and as many people as possible, (all of them if I had my way) need to be down that polling station, even if takes fleets of ambulances to get them there, to vote secretly in front of officials and observers.

 

[StakerOne]

It seems that a number of democratic countries like Canada, the US, Germany, Poland, Switzerland and Austria disagree with you about the integrity of postal votes, since you keep bringing up France as an example. They're able to make it work and you've shown no evidence to the contrary, indeed you claim that any such evidence is impossible to find. You're very good at shooting your own arguments in the head.

No amount of proclamations about it "working" means it works.

Elected governments have a vested interested in keeping things the way they are, that's how they got fucking elected in the first place.

 

[StakerOne]

But as long as you do accept that, for the sake of inclusivity, some cohorts would need to cast their vote remotely, the electronic means would appear to have no advantage over the PV.

Take them to a polling station in an ambulance.

 

[8ball]

Not without consequences for the voter. If ANYTHING happens to the bad actor, the voter is out on the street.

The problem is solved by no one having postal votes unless they absolutely need it, but even then I wouldn't be happy because those who still have PVs aren't immune from coersion.

I don't understand why you feel that people who don't need postal votes, should have postal votes.

What's wrong with the able bodied going down to the polling station and voting for themselves?

It's too dangerous.

I've done an awful lot of canvassing in my time, looking to register voters who aren't already registered and those who weren't on the marked register (voted at the last election) and do you know what the biggest thing is that stops people voting?

"I've never been to a polling station and I don't know what to do, so I'm afraid I'll feel like a right useless cunt when I walk in and ask people what to do. I'm just so embarassed that people will laugh at me because I don't know how to vote" - Honestly that's it.

And postal votes have made that way worse. The damage can't be calculated.

There's going to be a tonne of people who aren't very good literacy wise, including those where English is either a second language or not known at all.

The voter will turn to another household member for help to fill in the postal ballot and it will be "oh and you put a cross next to this party here because they're the only ones looking out for us ....."

Since postal voting for all has come in, there will be a huge chunk of voters who have NEVER been to a polling station and they are in no hurry to go down there. A subset of those, would have given away their postal vote to someone else and don't want any trouble.

That all has to stop and as many people as possible, (all of them if I had my way) need to be down that polling station, even if takes fleets of ambulances to get them there, to vote secretly in front of officials and observers.

Just addressing the first point (I can’t be arsed with the quote code while on my phone) - you wouldn’t have to do anything to the bad actor. I’m talking about following up reports and getting a sense of the frequency and patterns of any abuses.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Take them to a polling station in an ambulance.

Yeah, like we have plenty of spare ambulance crews sitting around doing fuck all.

 

[PR1Berske]

There's a reason why Trump and his supporters throw doubt on electronic voting machines. They're computers, and computers can be hacked, go down, break, become corrupted. That's before we get into "blockchain" and the total collapse in crypto currencies, where entire fortunes have been wiped or lost with almost no oversight.

Pencil and paper in a church hall has worked in this country for generations because the worst that can happen is the pencil snaps.

Postal voting in this country is, by and large, safe as houses. As I typed earlier, it's very unlikely, almost unfeasible, that there is widespread voter fraud. The reason why I stepped back from touching on 'head of the household' concerns is because of the tricky subject matter down that particular cul-de-sac. Yes, that means we have to discuss whether the head of a traditional Islamic family would even permit his family to vote. Yes, that means we have to discuss whether a hard-line/old fashioned father figure would allow his wife or teenage child to vote in secret. Yes, that means having to discuss whether landlords are intercepting their tennants' ballot papers. I don't know if this forum is the best place to open those can of worms.

What I do know is that this government have insisted on photo ID to protect the voting system against fraud, against the backdrop of the total number of impersonation claims to be , at most, one. They've chosen to exclude most forms of ID available to young people. The next set of local elections will be weighted towards the government on this basis alone. And that is worth protesting against rather than being led down a path of discussing whether postal votes are 100% secure.

 

[brogdale]

Take them to a polling station in an ambulance.

Responses like that do your argument no real favours, tbh.

 

[StakerOne]

Just addressing the first point (I can’t be arsed with the quote code while on my phone) - you wouldn’t have to do anything to the bad actor. I’m talking about following up reports and getting a sense of the frequency and patterns of any abuses.

Don't need to.

The other way around (the secret ballot down the polling station) we know that coersion is impossible, ergo, armed with that knowledge, only those who are proponents of coersion to get the result they want, would think that postal votes for all, is a cracking idea.

 

[brogdale]

There's a reason why Trump and his supporters throw doubt on electronic voting machines. They're computers, and computers can be hacked, go down, break, become corrupted. That's before we get into "blockchain" and the total collapse in crypto currencies, where entire fortunes have been wiped or lost with almost no oversight.

Pencil and paper in a church hall has worked in this country for generations because the worst that can happen is the pencil snaps.

Postal voting in this country is, by and large, safe as houses. As I typed earlier, it's very unlikely, almost unfeasible, that there is widespread voter fraud. The reason why I stepped back from touching on 'head of the household' concerns is because of the tricky subject matter down that particular cul-de-sac. Yes, that means we have to discuss whether the head of a traditional Islamic family would even permit his family to vote. Yes, that means we have to discuss whether a hard-line/old fashioned father figure would allow his wife or teenage child to vote in secret. Yes, that means having to discuss whether landlords are intercepting their tennants' ballot papers. I don't know if this forum is the best place to open those can of worms.

What I do know is that this government have insisted on photo ID to protect the voting system against fraud, against the backdrop of the total number of impersonation claims to be , at most, one. They've chosen to exclude most forms of ID available to young people. The next set of local elections will be weighted towards the government on this basis alone. And that is worth protesting against rather than being led down a path of discussing whether postal votes are 100% secure.

And...for those with a belief in Parliamentary/local rep dem, the fact that PV tends to increase 'turnout' by 15 - 50% depending on the type of election, would in itself recommend wider use.

 

[StakerOne]

There's a reason why Trump and his supporters throw doubt on electronic voting machines. They're computers, and computers can be hacked, go down, break, become corrupted. That's before we get into "blockchain" and the total collapse in crypto currencies, where entire fortunes have been wiped or lost with almost no oversight.

Pencil and paper in a church hall has worked in this country for generations because the worst that can happen is the pencil snaps.

Postal voting in this country is, by and large, safe as houses. As I typed earlier, it's very unlikely, almost unfeasible, that there is widespread voter fraud. The reason why I stepped back from touching on 'head of the household' concerns is because of the tricky subject matter down that particular cul-de-sac. Yes, that means we have to discuss whether the head of a traditional Islamic family would even permit his family to vote. Yes, that means we have to discuss whether a hard-line/old fashioned father figure would allow his wife or teenage child to vote in secret. Yes, that means having to discuss whether landlords are intercepting their tennants' ballot papers. I don't know if this forum is the best place to open those can of worms.

What I do know is that this government have insisted on photo ID to protect the voting system against fraud, against the backdrop of the total number of impersonation claims to be , at most, one. They've chosen to exclude most forms of ID available to young people. The next set of local elections will be weighted towards the government on this basis alone. And that is worth protesting against rather than being led down a path of discussing whether postal votes are 100% secure.

The example you cite, are centralised computers. They aren't blockchain. I wouldn't trust centralised computers that are well documented for being hacked.

You can't hack a blockchain and the voter can verify (for a very short amount of time) that their vote was registered the way they intended.

 

[StakerOne]

And...for those with a belief in Parliamentary/local rep dem, the fact that PV tends to increase 'turnout' by 15 - 50% depending on the type of election, would in itself recommend wider use.

What use is a higher turnout if many people, vulnerable ones in particular, lose their right to a secret ballot?

 

[NoXion]

No amount of proclamations about it "working" means it works.

Elected governments have a vested interested in keeping things the way they are, that's how they got fucking elected in the first place.

So none of the countries I listed have any integrity in their postal votes? 47% of the German electorate voted by post in 2021. Where is the evidence for what must be a massive democratic shortfall in that country? Your consistent refusal to back up your argument means I can't take it seriously.

If governments have a vested interest in the way things are, then that argument would necessarily include places where the status quo is disallowing universal postal voting. It's an empty argument.

 

[StakerOne]

Responses like that do your argument no real favours, tbh.

It does because I take their rights seriously.

You don't. If you did, you would be racking your brains for a way in which everyone has the secret ballot. The secret ballot is a sacred right.

 

[8ball]

There's a reason why Trump and his supporters throw doubt on electronic voting machines. They're computers, and computers can be hacked, go down, break, become corrupted. That's before we get into "blockchain" and the total collapse in crypto currencies, where entire fortunes have been wiped or lost with almost no oversight.

Pencil and paper in a church hall has worked in this country for generations because the worst that can happen is the pencil snaps.

Postal voting in this country is, by and large, safe as houses. As I typed earlier, it's very unlikely, almost unfeasible, that there is widespread voter fraud. The reason why I stepped back from touching on 'head of the household' concerns is because of the tricky subject matter down that particular cul-de-sac. Yes, that means we have to discuss whether the head of a traditional Islamic family would even permit his family to vote. Yes, that means we have to discuss whether a hard-line/old fashioned father figure would allow his wife or teenage child to vote in secret. Yes, that means having to discuss whether landlords are intercepting their tennants' ballot papers. I don't know if this forum is the best place to open those can of worms.

What I do know is that this government have insisted on photo ID to protect the voting system against fraud, against the backdrop of the total number of impersonation claims to be , at most, one. They've chosen to exclude most forms of ID available to young people. The next set of local elections will be weighted towards the government on this basis alone. And that is worth protesting against rather than being led down a path of discussing whether postal votes are 100% secure.

This entire post is whataboutery, obv, but yeah, the evidence was in-person impersonation was also scant.

Wondering what the issue is with the PASS card, though (am assuming the young person concerned does not drive and has never travelled abroad, obv).

 

[StakerOne]

So none of the countries I listed have any integrity in their postal votes? 47% of the German electorate voted by post in 2021. Where is the evidence for what must be a massive democratic shortfall in that country? Your consistent refusal to back up your argument means I can't take it seriously.

If governments have a vested interest in the way things are, then that argument would necessarily include places where the status quo is disallowing universal postal voting. It's an empty argument.

If everyone has postal votes, by their very nature there's no integrity as they are wide open to coersion. That is a fact none of us can escape.

 

[PR1Berske]

The example you cite, are centralised computers. They aren't blockchain. I wouldn't trust centralised computers that are well documented for being hacked.

You can't hack a blockchain and the voter can verify (for a very short amount of time) that their vote was registered the way they intended.

If an election result is close or tied, there has to be a recount. Each physical paper rechecked and recorded, including postal votes. Votes can be physically observed and confirmed as genuine for hours, even days, after polling day.

I doubt very much that the bright new future of virtual voting allows for such administrative oversight.

 

[NoXion]

If everyone has postal votes, by their very nature there's no integrity as they are wide open to coersion. That is a fact none of us can escape.

If it's a fact there should be evidence for it. So cough it up already.