No place for Israel in Middle East, says Iran’s Ahmadinejad

[ViolentPanda]

fuck off

Posts the person who had just sworn not to respond to anything I post.

You're all over the place!

 

[elbows]

I don't see that as progress, I'm afraid. The position of the Palestinians is as desperate materially as it's ever been. I don't see any signs of progress towards a one-state solution (and I hear plenty of empty rhetoric about a completely unviable two-state 'solution), but I still maintain that it is the only solution. May well not happen in our lifetimes, or events may unfold rather rapidly. After all, apartheid came to an end far faster than I would think most of us thought it would, and in a far better way than most of us thought it could.

Its not progress I can put much hope in, I mention it only because it was the only thing I could think of that might count, but I dont seek to overplay its significance.

As for how fast things can move, its a strange world eh. A power can seem unshakeable and omnipotent for decades, with many throwing their corpses at it without progress, and then one day it just crumbles before peoples eyes. Same with conflict, no matter how ugly and entrenched it is, never rule out the possibilities of swift de-escalalation. The Israel-Palestine situation offers little to suggest we will see these phenomenon at play in a hurry, but never say never all the same.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The Israel-Palestine situation offers little to suggest we will see these phenomenon at play in a hurry, but never say never all the same.

Where I have hope is that resolution of the problem is to the benefit of all sides. Again, the comparison with SA is good, I think: apartheid coming to an end was not just good for black people in South Africa; it was also very good for white people too. Paranoid heavily armed oppressor is no way to go through life.

 

[Deareg]

And your point?

That you are a cunt.

 

[ska invita]

hipipol said: ↑
And your point?

That you are a cunt.

just clicked on this thread for the first time - looks like a classic

 

[purenarcotic]

Where I have hope is that resolution of the problem is to the benefit of all sides. Again, the comparison with SA is good, I think: apartheid coming to an end was not just good for black people in South Africa; it was also very good for white people too. Paranoid heavily armed oppressor is no way to go through life.

I'm not so sure it is, only because the situation within Israel is very complex; Palestine aside, there are a lot of social problem in Israel; the secular vs the religious, the religious vs the ultra religious etc. It should not be underestimated how difficult that makes any sort of progress.

Maybe it was the same in SA; I was far too young / not actually born to remember it and to my shame I haven't done a great deal of reading on it bar the basics.

 

[weltweit]

Mitt Romney : "Ahmadinejad should be indicted under The Genocide Convention"
http://www.businessinsider.com/mitt-romney-ahmadinejad-iran-obama-israel-netanyahu-2012-8

and his people treated like the pariah they are

 

[elbows]

Those with rather broad ideas about what constitutes genocide should probably watch their own tongues. Im sure its not that hard to interpret talk of treating people as pariahs as genocidal talk, if thats the level of rhetoric people want to indulge in. Bad theatre from both sides.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Mitt Romney : "Ahmadinejad should be indicted under The Genocide Convention"
http://www.businessinsider.com/mitt-romney-ahmadinejad-iran-obama-israel-netanyahu-2012-8

Mitt Romney is a thoroughgoing cretin who needs to put his tongue up AIPAC's arse big-time if he hopes to be president.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

no your not you dishonest prick. You know exactly what you mean. You are saying that the "radical left" claims everyone but Jews do. Your saying the "radical left" has a double standard when it comes to Jews and by implication you are saying that all lefties are closet anti Semites

I did not say "the radical left" or "the far left" did I you div?

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

It has different connotations for me. Like when Alan Bennett uses the word to describe how he feels about free university education. I think it can be a useful term to describe those things that we should demand simply because we are here.

I also think it's a good guide to bigger conflicts. In the case of Israel/Palestine, there are now two distinct groups that lay claim to the same land. I think the only sensible way forward is for each to recognise the other's right to be there. In the end, that can be the only solution - a 'one-state' solution.

Morality is determined by history's winners.

 

[dylans]

I did not say "the radical left" or "the far left" did I you div?

Erm......

Spanky Longhorn
It's amazing how so many on the far left grant a moral right to everyone to live where ever they like except Jews

I may be a "div" but at least I can remember my own fucking posts.

(and yours... Div)

 

[smmudge]

I think the only sensible way forward is for each to recognise the other's right to be there.

You make it sound so obvious and simple but when has there ever been any suggestion that Israel is willing to do that?

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Erm......



I may be a "div" but at least I can remember my own fucking posts.

(and yours... Div)

Thanks for proving my point you thick cunt - I didn't say "the far left" did I?

I said "many on the far left" why don't argue with what I actually said rather than what you would love me to have said?

 

[dylans]

Thanks for proving my point you thick cunt - I didn't say "the far left" did I?

Yes you did.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Morality is determined by history's winners.

Morality is an ongoing debate. And 'history's winners' are necessarily only decided after the fact. Who is 'history's winner' depends on how long after the fact you are looking from. Famously, Franco died believing that everything was 'tied up', that he had secured his legacy. But is Franco one of 'history's winners'? I would think not.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I said "many on the far left" why don't argue with what I actually said rather than what you would love me to have said?

No, you said 'so many on the far left'. That 'so' is important because it shows your attitude towards the numbers being dealt with. You're pointlessly splitting hairs over something that doesn't affect the substance of what you wrote. And what you wrote was a lazy, unsubstantiated generalisation.

 

[dylans]

Thanks for proving my point you thick cunt - I didn't say "the far left" did I?

I said "many on the far left" why don't argue with what I actually said rather than what you would love me to have said?

Lets talk about the substance of what your sentence means. When you say "so many on the far left grant a moral right for everyone to live wherever they like except the Jews" you are implying that there is a double standard. That "so many on the left" are in favour of immigration for everyone with the sole exception of Jews. The further implication is that "so many on the far left" are therefore anti Semitic. No mention of the context of why anti Zionists are opposed to the right of return, no mention of the fact that anti Zionists are opposed to the Zionist citizenship law because it applies ONLY to Jews while those who have an ancestral relationship with that land are denied the same rights solely on the basis of religion.

No mention of the fact that the right of return is part of a colonial project of settlement built on ethnic cleansing.No mention of the fact that some guy from Brooklyn who has never so much as stepped foot in that land can become a citizen overnight while millions of people who can trace their roots back there for generations live as refugees or live under military occupation. No mention of the fact that families are forced to stand and watch as their homes and farms are bulldozed and demolished to make way for ""city expansions", settlements and "security walls" or because they are routinely denied planning permission.

No, this is all irrelevant in your world. It is just because they are Jews. Its just anti Semitism. It's an old and tired smear but when I call you up on it do you discuss the substance of my criticism? No, you want to quibble about the odd adjective or adverb as if they change the substance or meaning of your post one little bit. They don't

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

No mention of the fact that the right of return is part of a colonial project of settlement built on ethnic cleansing.No mention of the fact that some guy from Brooklyn who has never so much as stepped foot in that land can become a citizen overnight while millions of people who can trace their roots back there for generations live as refugees or live under military occupation. No mention of the fact that families are forced to stand and watch as their homes and farms are bulldozed and demolished to make way for ""city expansions", settlements and "security walls" or because they are routinely denied planning permission.

I was commenting on the attitude of many on the far left to the moral right of Jews to live where they like as opposed to almost every other group on Earth - I wasn't commenting on Israeli government policy.

 

[Pickman's model]

Lets talk about the substance of what your sentence means.

i didn't read any further as this is all too often the opening of the pedant.

 

[dylans]

I was commenting on the attitude of many on the far left to the moral right of Jews to live where they like as opposed to almost every other group on Earth - I wasn't commenting on Israeli government policy.

Yes and I have given you an explanation why your premise is false in my last post. You have yet to answer it.

 

[frogwoman]

I was commenting on the attitude of many on the far left to the moral right of Jews to live where they like as opposed to almost every other group on Earth - I wasn't commenting on Israeli government policy.

And the willingness of some on the left to hold the israeli w/c responsible for things that they would not blame them for if it was any other country.

 

[dylans]

And the willingness of some on the left to hold the israeli w/c responsible for things that they would not blame them for if it was any other country.

That's a load of crap. What crimes do critics of Israel condemn in Israel that they support anywhere else? This is a typical tired old Zionist deflection tactic, one that is thrown at every critic of Israel every time Israels crimes against the Palestinians are mentioned and frankly I am surprised at you for repeating it.

 

[frogwoman]

That's a load of crap. What crimes do critics of Israel condemn in Israel that they support anywhere else? This is a typical tired old Zionist deflection tactic, one that is thrown at every critic of Israel every time Israels crimes against the Palestinians are mentioned and frankly I am surprised at you for repeating it.

that's not what i said.

 

[frogwoman]

I didn't say that they condemn things in Israel that they support elsewhere.

 

[dylans]

that's not what i said.

I don't believe the Israeli working class are being held to a higher standard than w/c people anywhere else.

 

[dylans]

I didn't say that they condemn things in Israel that they support elsewhere.

Yeah apologies. You were talking about the Israeli w/c. I misread your post.

 

[Pickman's model]

That's a load of crap. What crimes do critics of Israel condemn in Israel that they support anywhere else? This is a typical tired old Zionist deflection tactic, one that is thrown at every critic of Israel every time Israels crimes against the Palestinians are mentioned and frankly I am surprised at you for repeating it.

 

[frogwoman]

I don't believe the Israeli working class are being held to a higher standard than w/c people anywhere else.

You might not but plenty of people do.

 

[smmudge]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone arguing that jews don't have a moral right to live in Israel. They just don't have a moral right to massacre and displace others while they do so.