No place for Israel in Middle East, says Iran’s Ahmadinejad
- Thread starter weltweit
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
does dylans' post bear me out?you said this, you, with a straight face?
dylans
overlord of all acorns
The objection to the right of return is not that Jews can automatically become citizens of Israel. It is that ONLY Jews can automatically become citizens of Israel. In a state where those with an ancestral relationship to that land are denied citizenship, such a law is racist
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
It's more that the strains of leftism that take up the Israel-palestinian situation are likely to also be the kind of anti-imperialist/third worldist strains that also write off much of the west's working class. Imo
dylans
overlord of all acorns
I think there is some truth in this. It is a wrong approach however. Anti Zionist/ anti occupation organisations in Israel should be supported. I think the Israeli working class would benefit from the end of the occupation too.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
I completely agree
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
I don't think we should write off the Israeli working class or designate them "the enemy" and yes, I accept that there is a tendancy amongst some on the left to do this for the reasons that random outlined above.
However, it has to be said that there is no anti Zionist left of any significance in Israel. There just isn't and what there is is tiny and very isolated. It is a tragedy that there isn't but it remains the case that on the whole the Israeli working class remain tied to a reactionary ideology. I have been attacked on this thread for saying this, as though saying it implies I think it is a good thing. Its not, its a tragedy and those who do organise against the occupation are all the more heroic for doing so in such circumstances of isolation. They have my utmost respect. It is by no means inevitable that Israelis will not organise against the occupation or against the crimes of the IDF and the Likud government. In the 1980s following the massacres of Sabra and Shatilla some 400.000 Israelis demonstrated against the Lebanon war. It can be done, even if, at the moment it seems like a lonely task
However, it has to be said that there is no anti Zionist left of any significance in Israel. There just isn't and what there is is tiny and very isolated. It is a tragedy that there isn't but it remains the case that on the whole the Israeli working class remain tied to a reactionary ideology. I have been attacked on this thread for saying this, as though saying it implies I think it is a good thing. Its not, its a tragedy and those who do organise against the occupation are all the more heroic for doing so in such circumstances of isolation. They have my utmost respect. It is by no means inevitable that Israelis will not organise against the occupation or against the crimes of the IDF and the Likud government. In the 1980s following the massacres of Sabra and Shatilla some 400.000 Israelis demonstrated against the Lebanon war. It can be done, even if, at the moment it seems like a lonely task
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Such as? There were significant numbers of relatively poor white Afrikaaners in apartheid South Africa, mostly in rural areas. Don't blame them for apartheid, or make them suffer through sanctions? Well if they don't actively oppose apartheid, what exactly should they expect? And those who did actively oppose apartheid also supported sanctions. Would the same not apply to Israelis who oppose the occupation of Palestine?
'Don't blame the Israeli working class' is all very well, but their situation is not comparable to that of Palestinians in the occupied territories. There isn't an equivalence to be drawn between their situations.
That guy on this very thread was saying that the Jews were on Arab land and I was the only person who pulled him up on it. Loads of people go on about ancestral land and shit, the Palestinians have the moral right to be there over the Americans etc
I was the one who said that was racist, me, pissed, I'm pretty much Cartman when I'm pissed on here
Have a word liberals
I love how you can just hoy 'working class' and suddenly it's a different thing
I'd imagine it's impossible to relate to Israel or Palestinian working class, that place is insane, every Israeli has to be in a war for 2 years and be shot at and blown up, Palestinians probably have it even worse.
Fuck you lot
I'd imagine it's impossible to relate to Israel or Palestinian working class, that place is insane, every Israeli has to be in a war for 2 years and be shot at and blown up, Palestinians probably have it even worse.
Fuck you lot
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
palestinians only have to do it for a lifetime
They get away after two years and piss people off all over S.E. Asia.....
Not really a war though is it? Tanks vs stones? Roads vs check points? Airports vs nothing? US money vs nothing?
hipipol
Peckham Wry
I have a firm belief that Israel is not a collective noun for "Jews"
It is wrong to think that Likud speaks for every Israeli let alone the Diaspora
The current govt of Israel seems predicated on the notion that might is right
This is self defeating if you are a small country
Also it is worth noting that even according to the old religious texts, the Land of Canaan was seized by force, but was later lost
Personally, I reckon it belongs to the Jebusites, well at least Jerusalem does
Who speaks for them?
It is wrong to think that Likud speaks for every Israeli let alone the Diaspora
The current govt of Israel seems predicated on the notion that might is right
This is self defeating if you are a small country
Also it is worth noting that even according to the old religious texts, the Land of Canaan was seized by force, but was later lost
Personally, I reckon it belongs to the Jebusites, well at least Jerusalem does
Who speaks for them?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
not bloody you.
hipipol
Peckham Wry
I dont claim to
Its what many refer to as a rhetorical question
So what do you think about the current Likud Govt and its decision to describe Israel as a Jewish State?
Personally I view this as dangerously conflationist, a rather simplistic strong arm technique to try to tie the Diaspora to approval of a militaristic ruling cadre that currently holds sway
I have really deep misgiving of any religious state you care to name
Just because of the sufferings over centuries of that religion, it does not absolve them from the recognition of Apart Hate policies
I'm sure the Voortrekkers mean no harm also
Look what it ended up as?
barney_pig
Po-cha-na-quar-hip
Ireland? great Britain? Andorra? Argentina? Dominican republic?, El Salvador?,Italy? Paraguay? Panama? Peru? poland? portugal? spain? Switzerland, Greece and finland? Denmark?, Iceland? and Sweden?
thats just some of the Christian ones, then there are the Muslim ones, the hindu's and the buddhists.
strange that all these religious states don't get you calling for their destruction. only the only Jewish one
thats just some of the Christian ones, then there are the Muslim ones, the hindu's and the buddhists.
strange that all these religious states don't get you calling for their destruction. only the only Jewish one
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Not sure why you label all of those countries as religious states but for the record I call for the end to all religious states. Secular governance is the only guarantee of democratic rights for all a country's citizens.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
No "moral rights" inhere to either side.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
There are a few equivalences, given the loaded nature of class stratification in the state of Israel. Black relict Jews from the Horn of Africa have been encouraged and enticed into emigrating to Israel for at least the last 15 years purely and simply to fill the labour gap caused by the 2nd intifada. They have conditional citizenship in a state that openly debates the veracity of their "Jewishness", and are heir to exactly the same prejudices that Palestinian "Guest-workers" were, except that the likes of the Bene Israel have no escape from that situation.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Are those countries engaged in the active denial of citizenship to people on the basis of their religion? Do you have to be a Christian to be an equal citizen in Sweden? Do you get denied citizenship if you are not a Catholic in Spain? Do you get kicked out of Greece for not being an Orthodox believer? Those countries may not have strictly secular constitutions but they are hardly theocracies. (perhaps Poland is but Iceland? Denmark? Even Ireland these days is pretty secular)
There are certainly some very nasty Islamic states that should be overthrown and a few Buddhist theocracies such as Bhutan but which country is a Hindu theocracy? India certainly isn't. Its a secular country. I can't think of any Hindu theocracies in the world except perhaps Nepal and even they define themselves as a secular state since their 2007 constitution.
purenarcotic
Conveniently Pocket Sized
You don't get kicked out of Israel for not being Orthodox.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
No you just get excluded for being a Palestinian
purenarcotic
Conveniently Pocket Sized
Right, well say that in the first place then.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Any Jew anywhere in the world can automatically become a citizen at any time. A non Jew can't. This is the practice of a theocracy. A state that defines citizenship on the basis of religion. Do any of the countries listed above define citizenship on those terms? No. Therefore the comparison is facile
purenarcotic
Conveniently Pocket Sized
Yes, thank you, I'm well aware of who can and cannot become a citizen of Israel.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
You are right however that Israel does not define citizenship or even the state in terms of adherence or belief. Like Pakistan it is primarily about identity not practice or theology. There is a contradiction at the heart of the Zionist project, that is it wants it both ways, it is a self proclaimed secular project ie the content or practice of belief is not the issue, but it is a state nevertheless which defines itself in religious terms or in terms of national identity defined primarily as religious identity. This is a contradiction at the heart not only of the Israeli project but at the heart of all religious nationalism. You don't have to be a practicing Jew to be a citizen, you don't have to believe anything in particular, but you do have to be accepted as a Jew by the state and equal citizenship is defined in terms of religious inclusion. It is an ideology of inclusion and exclusion. An ideology of nationalism defined in religious terms.
barney_pig
Po-cha-na-quar-hip
Is being jewish simply a matter of faith?
It's racial not religious so it isn't a theocracy. If you are from Jewish heritage then you can be a citizen even if you are an atheist
That's kind of a facile mistake to make while using the word 'facile' in a post!
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