That's very true, but the UK's overcentralised in all sorts of respects and has been for a long time, and up to a point the way the government has responded to covid-19 is symptomatic of that. This government is probably a more determined centraliser and control freak than most, though...
Ministers target July 4th for reopening of England’s pubs and restaurants
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That's very true, but the UK's overcentralised in all sorts of respects and has been for a long time, and up to a point the way the government has responded to covid-19 is symptomatic of that. This government is probably a more determined centraliser and control freak than most, though...
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Oh I think there's definitely more than a hint of nudge and wink at this. tbh London is a bit ahead of the rest of the country - hit hard and early and much lower levels of infection now for a month - so I would say it is ready for opening up. But that's that lack of localism. London really should have locked down earlier, and probably should have been quarantined in March. These things don't sound so mad now, but I guess in March the idea of quarantining a whole city was still off the scale bonkers.
Artaxerxes
Look out, he's got a gnu!
Westminster is absolutely an addict when it comes to control. They just can't help themselves. Its been the case for centuries at this point.
The model they use for regional and mayoral devolution absolutely relies on adding more things for people to vote for but hamstringing the new institutions or councils and preventing them making own decisions or budgets (especially raising money).
I'm uneasy about this. This is a bit hipocriticle as yesterday, I actually had a couple of pints at a pub. It was open for take away roast dinners but serving pints through a hatch. I met a friend and we had a drink outside socially distanced. Only 2 beers as you couldn't go in to use the toilet. It was nice to be at a pub, in the sun, almost normal.
It still feels a bit early to be going back to regular opening, even for places with an outdoors. They're not going to be quiet. SD will get compromised.
As above, I did that yesterday. Had it been crowded outside, I wouldn't have. Bristol was pretty busy yesterday, BLM and general people out in the sun. However, round where we were people wer in distanced small groups.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Well this raises another question, doesn't it? At what point should those social distancing rules be changed/relaxed/got rid of?
Denmark halved its rule from 2 to 1 metre a couple of weeks ago and reopened pubs with that rule. Been ok so far.
And of course, it will be nice to be able to go to the loo when out again.
I think some pubs have rearranged their garden furniture to prevent this. Well at least one we saw yesterday had the benches stacked upside down, one upon another. This was on a quiet ish bit of the harbour side though. Obviously done to prevent gatherings.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Yes, you would say that. But opening London means unlocking much of England between Peterborough and Brighton, smashing social distancing on trains, let alone social distancing on eg London Bridge. That's certainly what would happen if things go back to how they were before. But what if opening London precipitates the crash as it turns out city firms are in large measure not leasing the office space they had before, as they're mostly working from home, as businesses servicing the city take an additional hit, as cinemas and theatres close as no one wants to be sitting in crowds, as the extent of cv on small businesses in London becomes clear? So much of central london relies on tourists both domestic and foreign, and I don't think people will be rushing back, certainly not this year. Leaving the lockdown postpones seeing what's underneath the plaster the government's put on, ripping it off for London might well do the opposite of what you'd want
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It'll be nice to be able to sit in a beer garden. I will certainly partake. But on wider issues, hopefully that is merely a proxy for more important things, such as getting social services moving again. These are the bits of lockdown that are really hurting people, and they don't get much airtime really.
pesh
Well-Known Member
they've gone bust
nogojones
spelling is overrated
We've had 60,000 excess deaths. I can't see keeping the pubs closed for a couple of months more being more destructive than that. Maybe you measure destruction in other units?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I think you may have misunderstood the point. At some point, lockdown itself becomes more destructive than the virus as the virus recedes. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. The point of disagreement is over where that point lies. Indeed, some of those 60,000 deaths were themselves caused by lockdown.
nogojones
spelling is overrated
I've not been following that closely, but I was under the impression that around 100 poeple a day are still dying, so I guess there's still quite a lot of infected people out there with and no effective track and trace meaures in place. Personally I'd be looking at put all our efforts into addressing that before I start worrying about pubs
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
It's not just about pubs, as you're aware. Even if we accept the 60,000 figure as being totally down to C19 (which there are not) we currently have 6 million people who are having most of their salaries paid by the government. That's going to end in a couple of months and many of those people will lose their jobs completely. The airline industry is close to collapse, the hospitality sector is on a knife edge. There's a very real prospect that the poverty and hardship created by a sudden 3, 4, or 5 million unemployed will equal or surpass that caused by the deaths. It's already happening due to the effects of the lockdown.
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nogojones
spelling is overrated
I can think of many ways of addressing those concerns without throwing old and vulnerable people under the bus. A fairer tax system, scrapping our weapons of mass destruction projects....
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Yeah, but none of them are going to happen any time soon so we need to deal with reality and get things open as soon as reasonably possible.
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It's more like 200 a day, with around half of deaths coming in care homes now.
Numbers
an ting!
The pub closest to me, not my local as it’s a racist shithole have been re-doing there garden in prep’, outside bar, tables etc. spaced out. It’s quite a big beer garden.
Shame it’s how it is and I’d never go in there as would murder a few pints.
Luckily we have a decent garden so we can wait.
Shame it’s how it is and I’d never go in there as would murder a few pints.
Luckily we have a decent garden so we can wait.
ska invita
back on the other side
I've now seen three pubs and bars already doing this, never mind this new date.
From what I've seen they'll use them and it'll be rammed
they've gone bust
Think my nearest one is reopening tho.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Well, unless our glorious leaders know something about the virus we don't - and that seems unlikely - we may be about to become a case study on the effect of radical easing of lockdown on infection rates.
TBH, if there was a functioning test and trace strategy, and an adequately equipped health service, I could see this as a reasonable balance between the economic issues and infection control; in the absence of those things, it's looking a hell of a lot like trusting to luck. Let's hope we're lucky, eh?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Given how much further along the line many other countries are with their easing, that's not really the case. The UK is behind and so has the luxury of being able to evaluate the effects of easing elsewhere.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
Except that easing elsewhere seems to have been accompanied, at least in the majority of cases, with quite high levels of test and trace, and enforcement of the existing rules.
nogojones
spelling is overrated
so lets crack on and cull the oldies then
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Thought that it will have to be everyone seated and table service. Once the seats are taken no one else allowed in the garden. Probably need to book a table.
The countries that are reopening have much lower rates of infection and seem to mostly be keeping 'hotspots' under lockdown or heavily monitored
The numbers in the UK are still pretty high, and the government still doesn't seem to have any clue at all about tracking or isolating the virus. They are opening up because of the money and to appease the public, which are legit reasons, but from the perspective of not catching and spreading the virus, I would say pubs should be one of the last places to open. They are filthy and crowded and the drunks will not observe social distancing.
The numbers in the UK are still pretty high, and the government still doesn't seem to have any clue at all about tracking or isolating the virus. They are opening up because of the money and to appease the public, which are legit reasons, but from the perspective of not catching and spreading the virus, I would say pubs should be one of the last places to open. They are filthy and crowded and the drunks will not observe social distancing.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Don’t be silly.
isolate the most vulnerable and get as many of the others back to work as possible.
That's the obvious process. Itll likely mean paying for bouncers, for at least the first weekend or so. Can see lots of places struggling with this tbh
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