Ministers target July 4th for reopening of England’s pubs and restaurants

[Supine]

I'll be going straight to the pub for a pint of Guinness asap. I'll obviously risk assess the venue at the time to ensure I can be socially distanced enough. More than happy to have an 11am pint rather than a 7pm pint if that's how it rolls.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

so lets crack on and cull the oldies then

That's what has just happened. We can't bring them back. How does reopening pubs change things for the future in that regard?

The case here surely has to do with the mishandling of lockdown and the breakdown of inter-institutional infection control. People aren't dying in their thousands in care homes because people are now socialising outside. It's an emotive argument, but not a logical one.

 

[co-op]

Well, unless our glorious leaders know something about the virus we don't - and that seems unlikely - we may be about to become a case study on the effect of radical easing of lockdown on infection rates.

There's a lot of evidence that infections are very minimal in well-ventilated spaces, obviously including outdoors, and that if you maintain distancing then you should be ok. But it'll all depend on what the new rules are.

To me it really looks like the scandal over deaths from covid in just about every European country has been the non-protection of the vulnerable, most obviously the elderly.

 

[miss direct]

This. We have communal gardens where I live and all of the neighbours and us have been sitting around socialising all through this thing, just keeping distance, probably more like the 1m than 2 at times. What’s the difference with doing this at a pub garden?

Toilets, glasses.

 

[maomao]

Denmark halved its rule from 2 to 1 metre a couple of weeks ago and reopened pubs with that rule. Been ok so far.

Denmark with less than 20% of the deaths per million that we've had and new infections in double figures for weeks? Is this going to be the same as when you said 'the little ones are all back and it's fine' about Denmark when they don't even start school till 6 and we're sending four year olds back?

 

[nogojones]

Don’t be silly.

isolate the most vulnerable and get as many of the others back to work as possible.

Isolate the vulnerable for how long? How long is it cool to keep the most vulnerable in society in solitary for? They still need people to care for them, shop for them etc... Maybe if we address the virus as a priority we can properly open up the economy. Look at how New Zealand has dealt with this. We've addressed this pandemic in a shameful way and need to correct our methods or we're just gonna be on a merry-go-round of death

 

[Artaxerxes]

Isolate the vulnerable for how long? How long is it cool to keep the most vulnerable in society in solitary for? They still need people to care for them, shop for them etc... Maybe if we address the virus as a priority we can properly open up the economy. Look at how New Zealand has dealt with this. We've addressed this pandemic in a shameful way and need to correct our methods or we're just gonna be on a merry-go-round of death

The problem with comparing us to New Zealand or even Mongolia is that this country is a lot bigger and a lot more connected to the worlds economy. We're essentially a marketing and service hub which sees a lot of through traffic and a lot of middle management and travel.

Without that our economy is essentially nothing.

Having said this I would very much like to no longer be in solitary and actually able to go and travel somewhere but I have to balance that with not dying and it is a fucking tightrope on my mental health right now.

 

[existentialist]

There's a lot of evidence that infections are very minimal in well-ventilated spaces, obviously including outdoors, and that if you maintain distancing then you should be ok. But it'll all depend on what the new rules are.

To me it really looks like the scandal over deaths from covid in just about every European country has been the non-protection of the vulnerable, most obviously the elderly.

I think that avoiding infection is only half the issue, though - unless we know how many people are being infected, we're potentially trusting to luck when it comes to onward spread.

 

[existentialist]

Denmark with less than 20% of the deaths per million that we've had and new infections in double figures for weeks? Is this going to be the same as when you said 'the little ones are all back and it's fine' about Denmark when they don't even start school till 6 and we're sending four year olds back?

3 and 4 year olds, around here

 

[ska invita]

Look at how New Zealand has dealt with this. We've addressed this pandemic in a shameful way and need to correct our methods or we're just gonna be on a merry-go-round of death

This is what it boils down to. No deaths in Scotland today. If a nation is on top of it, then fine, but sadly England isn't, and the price we're going to pay, aside from death, loneliness, despair, is not being able to open when other european countries do. Except we are opening up anyway, on their schedule. And the odds are more carnage awaits as a result.

Cheers! Bottoms up

 

[ska invita]

Won't the pubs have to demonstrate how they'll avoid them being rammed in order to open again? Whether that plan is stuck to or enforced is a different matter mind...

demonstrate to who? i dont see anyone checking or enforcing this
youre obliged to write something down on paper as to how you'll deal with it, from what I recall, but its a paper exercise really isnt it?

 

[killer b]

demonstrate to who?

their insurers, if no-one else.

 

[maomao]

3 and 4 year olds, around here

Well private nurseries are open for all ages now but participation is very low. A lot will go out of business anyway when the full wave of unemployment hits.

 

[cupid_stunt]

drunks will not observe social distancing.

When I am drunk, people tend to avoid me.

 

[Marty1]

My daughter may be returning to school shortly - but from what I gather it’s voluntary. She says she may go back as she’s bored but with the caveat of only returning if enough of her friends are in agreement - think they’re having group chats to reach a consensus.

Strange times.

 

[frogwoman]

I'll happily go for a takeaway pint tbh, was thinking of going masked up after work. I think it's too soon to be opening up pubs back to normal tbh. It might be cool if this sees an end to stigmatisation of drinking in parks

 

[killer b]

there's stigmatisation of drinking in parks?

 

[frogwoman]

Round here there is

 

[not a trot]

We have a beach here, thankfully
And a back garden -- we're lucky

Our local has a titchy garden, but there is a big field full of cows round the back. Be fucked if I'm gonna mess with them after a few pints.

 

[Spymaster]

Isolate the vulnerable for how long? How long is it cool to keep the most vulnerable in society in solitary for? They still need people to care for them, shop for them ...

For ad long as they need to be. At the moment we’re locking down everyone. Even those who don’t need to be. Ideally we would test everyone and everyone who tests negative goes back to normal whilst those who test positive and those in high risk groups continue to self isolate. You seem to be saying that the most vulnerable shouldn’t be treated differently to others because it’s not fair.

 

[nogojones]

For ad long as they need to be. At the moment we’re locking down everyone. Even those who don’t need to be. Ideally we would test everyone and everyone who tests negative goes back to normal whilst those who test positive and those in high risk groups continue to self isolate. You seem to be saying that the most vulnerable shouldn’t be treated differently to others because it’s not fair.

Looking at the way it's being managed then that could be years. It feels like the government are trying to keep the virus level at a point that doesn't stamp it right down, but keeps enough of it in circulation that it stresses the health service enough to disrupt its normal service delivery.

I came to realise early on that the government don’t give a fuck about the old or vulnerable and I expect to be pretty isolated over the next two years. If the lockdown was fully enforced, without vague, contradictory messaging from the government, a robust testing service and a properly managed track and trace service run by someone like PHE rather than Serco in place, then we would be able to turn around the spread of this virus fairly effectively. But none of that is happening though. Through nudge and shove kids are being forced back to school to become new vectors of disease, furlong payments are starting to evaporate.

As it stands though we still seem to be the worst performing country in the world and the gang of disaster capitalists currently in office seem to be rubbing their hands with glee as the current disaster opens up new opportunities for them.

The economy is fucked regardless of if we open Weatherspoons next week or in November, but if the push is for next week then it will result in tens of thousands of additional deaths.

 

[Spymaster]

Looking at the way it's being managed then that could be years. It feels like the government are trying to keep the virus level at a point that doesn't stamp it right down, but keeps enough of it in circulation that it stresses the health service enough to disrupt its normal service delivery.

Why would they do that?

As it stands though we still seem to be the worst performing country in the world and the gang of disaster capitalists currently in office seem to be rubbing their hands with glee as the current disaster opens up new opportunities for them.

The situation is fucking-up far more businesses than it's creating.

The economy is fucked regardless of if we open Weatherspoons next week or in November, but if the push is for next week then it will result in tens of thousands of additional deaths.

It's fucked but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to unfuck it as much as possible and getting a sector back to work, albeit in a limited fashion, is part of that. There's no way that you can say with any certainty that it'll result in more deaths. If distancing measures are taken and the most vulnerable continue to isolate there's every chance that it will result in no more deaths.

 

[frogwoman]

Looking at the way it's being managed then that could be years. It feels like the government are trying to keep the virus level at a point that doesn't stamp it right down, but keeps enough of it in circulation that it stresses the health service enough to disrupt its normal service delivery.

I came to realise early on that the government don’t give a fuck about the old or vulnerable and I expect to be pretty isolated over the next two years. If the lockdown was fully enforced, without vague, contradictory messaging from the government, a robust testing service and a properly managed track and trace service run by someone like PHE rather than Serco in place, then we would be able to turn around the spread of this virus fairly effectively. But none of that is happening though. Through nudge and shove kids are being forced back to school to become new vectors of disease, furlong payments are starting to evaporate.

As it stands though we still seem to be the worst performing country in the world and the gang of disaster capitalists currently in office seem to be rubbing their hands with glee as the current disaster opens up new opportunities for them.

The economy is fucked regardless of if we open Weatherspoons next week or in November, but if the push is for next week then it will result in tens of thousands of additional deaths.

Yep.

 

[Pickman's model]

Looking at the way it's being managed then that could be years. It feels like the government are trying to keep the virus level at a point that doesn't stamp it right down, but keeps enough of it in circulation that it stresses the health service enough to disrupt its normal service delivery.

I came to realise early on that the government don’t give a fuck about the old or vulnerable and I expect to be pretty isolated over the next two years. If the lockdown was fully enforced, without vague, contradictory messaging from the government, a robust testing service and a properly managed track and trace service run by someone like PHE rather than Serco in place, then we would be able to turn around the spread of this virus fairly effectively. But none of that is happening though. Through nudge and shove kids are being forced back to school to become new vectors of disease, furlong payments are starting to evaporate.

As it stands though we still seem to be the worst performing country in the world and the gang of disaster capitalists currently in office seem to be rubbing their hands with glee as the current disaster opens up new opportunities for them.

The economy is fucked regardless of if we open Weatherspoons next week or in November, but if the push is for next week then it will result in tens of thousands of additional deaths.

It is being managed in the only way the miserable Johnson knows how, mismanaged and fouled up to the extent that once again Britain leads Europe - in avoidable coronavirus deaths

 

[nogojones]

Why would they do that?

The situation is fucking-up far more businesses than it's creating.

It's fucked but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to unfuck it as much as possible and getting a sector back to work, albeit in a limited fashion, is part of that. There's no way that you can say with any certainty that it'll result in more deaths. If distancing measures are taken and the most vulnerable continue to isolate there's every chance that it will result in no more deaths.

They do it to ensure that the NHS is not fit for purpose. It makes it more acceptable then to sell off more chunks of it. Or it's becomes so crippled that those who can afford to, choose private healthcare over public and it starts to suffer from death of a thousand cuts, whilst claiming that it's peoples free choice in an open market.

Yes, it will fuck up more businesses, however there are people in the current cabinet who will benefit hugely from this. One example:

Jacob Rees Mogg's firm set to make fortune from the coronavirus crisis

EXCLUSIVE: Somerset Capital Management, which the MP co-founded, says market volatility offers a “once or twice in a generation” opportunity to make “super normal returns”

www.mirror.co.uk

If you want more in-depth reading have a go at Naomi Klein’s - The Shock Doctrine


And yes, sadly, it will of course lead to more deaths as sure as night follows day if there is inadequate testing and track and trace service in place

 

[elbows]

For ad long as they need to be. At the moment we’re locking down everyone. Even those who don’t need to be. Ideally we would test everyone and everyone who tests negative goes back to normal whilst those who test positive and those in high risk groups continue to self isolate. You seem to be saying that the most vulnerable shouldn’t be treated differently to others because it’s not fair.

Nobody has the capacity to test the entire population at a particular moment in time. And even if they could, false negatives and lag between infection and test results are additional issues that make such concepts fall well short of an approach that can suddenly catch everyone.

Improved testing capacity and timing is not a solution on its own, it just unlocks some options that were not possible at other stages with more limited testing. Thats one of the reasons there is so much emphasis on testing combined with contact tracing, even though such systems are a pain in the arse to operate and wont work properly if compliance with the scheme is too low.

To some extent when talking about these issues, the broad concept of some kind of proper 'lockdown' is inadequate. Its all about the detail, and indeed plenty of those who call for an end to lockdown are not calling for a sudden end to social distancing and other burdens they think we still need to live with for some time to come.

The whole 'its not fair' thing is one of the reasons that, back when they hoped to limit the most draconian lockdown stuff so that it was actually just about directly shielding vulnerable groups, they thought they could justify the policy and soften the sense of unfairness by talking about herd immunity. It didnt go down well.

 

[editor]

there's stigmatisation of drinking in parks?

It's against the law in some. You legally can't drink in the green space in front of my block but everyone does.

 

[elbows]

It's against the law in some. You legally can't drink in the green space in front of my block but everyone does.

Indeed. I remember hearing a lot about this in the late 1980's, when I go to look for details now I see that I probably heard about it early on because Coventry was the first place in the UK to impose such restrictions, and I am not so far away from Cov. The particular image I have chosen isnt from Coventry though, apparently that one is from Liverpool.

Alcohol-free zone - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[killer b]

I've no problem with laws against drinking on parks tbh. I wish they had them round here.

 

[editor]

I've no problem with laws against drinking on parks tbh. I wish they had them round here.

I have. People stuck in flats with no gardens should be free to enjoy a socially distanced beer in their local park with friends while the pubs are shut. Or anytime, really.