Men supporting feminisms & feminists - ideological & intellectual pitfalls?

[ViolentPanda]

As most people on Urban are aware, I'm a bloke who's not backward in shouting my mouth off. I do know that some blokes are wary of getting involved in arguments around feminism beyond the generic stuff, because some of the divisions in feminism are quite hard to navigate, and being men, we're frightened of showing our ignorance to the world.

I suppose that what I'm asking, is for people - men and women - to explain what they see feminism as being, and state how they think different ideological streams can/cannot be reconciled. There are so many feminisms that sometimes the differences between groupings sometimes seem insurmountable, and the definitions, dogmatic.

 

[Steel Icarus]

I'd just like a thread that wasn't too judgemental/harsh when I'm getting stuff wrong, confused, exhibiting my unconscious bias, etc.

 

[wayward bob]

i imagine it's very easy for it to look like one gives a fuck only wrt the possibility of getting ones dick wet. you can blame patriarchy (and each other) for that one

 

[Steel Icarus]

i imagine it's very easy for it to look like one gives a fuck only wrt the possibility of getting ones dick wet. you can blame patriarchy (and each other) for that one

What do you mean?

 

[wayward bob]

What do you mean?

is that opaque?

eta: i mean i'll fight you and stuff, but that's what gets the majority of men bothering to even give a shit, right?

 

[Steel Icarus]

 

[wayward bob]

srs, i might have bothered. but fuck faux naivete over feminist discussion. you could try just presenting an opinion and having it shot down. learn from the shooting down. no-one spoon-fed me this shit.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

There's only one form of feminism though ViolentPanda . All the others are Peoples Front of Judea etc.

There are different ways to talk about it and different ways that people engage with it. But it's essentially very simple.

It's very tired and lazy to equate feminism with racism but so often it's the only way to make the point. So here it is : saying "there are many forms of feminism" is like saying that there are many forms of anti-racism; in other words it's nonsense. I know you'll have a clever and precise reply to this but that will just support the issue: either we're endlessly splitting this into separate strands, or we're trying to tackle it as a central issue.


I'm certainly not genned up on all the theory but that doesn't stop me having an opinion and being able to discuss this.


It seems to me that the most useful way that men can engage with the discussion is by looking at yourselves, looking at how you might be a part of the problem, and how you can listen and learn, and how you can engage with each other as allies to women and also to each other as fellow victims of the patriarchy.


That's the thing y'all need to do: seeing how our menfolk are affected by the patriarchy is only theory to us women. So looking at all that and how you yourselves are part of the dynamic might be a way in for men.

It strikes me that Trans folk are uniquely able to give some insight about that.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I'd just like a thread that wasn't too judgemental/harsh when I'm getting stuff wrong, confused, exhibiting my unconscious bias, etc.

I'm seeing hurt feelings here rather than proper thinking.

None of the recent threads have been "too" harsh or judgmental. In my opinion. They've been honest. You've had a chance to see how pissed off women are about all this. This is how we talk amongst ourselves. We're angry! We're very annoyed and deeply pissed off. We offload to each other and then we go home and pick up after the men. Or we refuse and get called moody.

 

[Pickman's model]

There are many forms of Marxism and xianity - doesn't make them all nonsense or devoid of value. There's ann oakley and bell hooks, rather different feminists but equally feminists all the same. So ViolentPanda's plea for people to say what it means to them seems a good starting point, it's clearly not the end of the matter

 

[ViolentPanda]

i imagine it's very easy for it to look like one gives a fuck only wrt the possibility of getting ones dick wet. you can blame patriarchy (and each other) for that one

is that opaque?

eta: i mean i'll fight you and stuff, but that's what gets the majority of men bothering to even give a shit, right?

So I give a fuck in the hopes of getting my dick wet, and "the majority of men" do likewise?

That's what's called "sloppy analysis", bob.

 

[ViolentPanda]

srs, i might have bothered. but fuck faux naivete over feminist discussion. you could try just presenting an opinion and having it shot down. learn from the shooting down. no-one spoon-fed me this shit.

Interesting bit of value judgement re: "faux naivete", because in some cases it'll be actual naivete. Seriously, some men have no exposure except media exposure, to feminist discussion and argument. It's not like WH Shits have a couple of shelves of books by feminists anymore.

 

[wayward bob]

So I give a fuck in the hopes of getting my dick wet, and "the majority of men" do likewise?

That's what's called "sloppy analysis", bob.

it's called being shitfaced and lashing out vp, no analysis involved i've apologised to the untaggable one that he caught my frustration, same to you.

 

[ViolentPanda]

it's called being shitfaced and lashing out vp, no analysis involved i've apologised to the untaggable one that he caught my frustration, same to you.

No problem.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I'd just like a thread that wasn't too judgemental/harsh when I'm getting stuff wrong, confused, exhibiting my unconscious bias, etc.

This being in P& P the forum where everyone regularly get called a cunt and told to read the whole of marx published works before having an opinion, I'm not sure why should men get threated gently when it comes to threads about feminist subjects.

 

[Steel Icarus]

This being in P& P the forum where everyone regularly get called a cunt and told to read the whole of marx published works before having an opinion, I'm not sure why should men get threated gently when it comes to threads about feminist subjects.

I'm not sure why you brought this up here eleven days after the last post, especially given the fact that a pretty big thread has been made with that goal since. Perhaps you missed it.

https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/male-experiences-of-patriarchy.364927/

 

[friendofdorothy]

I'm not sure why you brought this up here eleven days after the last post, especially given the fact that a pretty big thread has been made with that goal since. Perhaps you missed it.

https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/male-experiences-of-patriarchy.364927/

I didn't notice this thread earlier, its not long dead is it.

I have seen that other thread in K&S, thought this was a place for more robust debate about what Feminism is.

 

[Steel Icarus]

I'm not remotely interested in robust debates on feminism.

 

[friendofdorothy]

There's only one form of feminism though ViolentPanda . All the others are Peoples Front of Judea etc.

There are different ways to talk about it and different ways that people engage with it. But it's essentially very simple.

It's very tired and lazy to equate feminism with racism but so often it's the only way to make the point. So here it is : saying "there are many forms of feminism" is like saying that there are many forms of anti-racism; in other words it's nonsense. I know you'll have a clever and precise reply to this but that will just support the issue: either we're endlessly splitting this into separate strands, or we're trying to tackle it as a central issue.


I'm certainly not genned up on all the theory but that doesn't stop me having an opinion and being able to discuss this.


It seems to me that the most useful way that men can engage with the discussion is by looking at yourselves, looking at how you might be a part of the problem, and how you can listen and learn, and how you can engage with each other as allies to women and also to each other as fellow victims of the patriarchy.


That's the thing y'all need to do: seeing how our menfolk are affected by the patriarchy is only theory to us women. So looking at all that and how you yourselves are part of the dynamic might be a way in for men.

It strikes me that Trans folk are uniquely able to give some insight about that.

Well feminism is feminism yes but we can all disagree about what is or isn't feminist, and many feminists do disagree with each other on lots and lots of issues - so it's not at all clear what feminism is.

I'd be really interested in hearing what transpeople think about feminism too.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I'm not remotely interested in robust debates on feminism.

Really? Why then have you have posted so much on all the other feminist themed threads?
Sounds rather disingenuous coming from the top poster on the thread about
Feminism and the silencing of women

 

[Steel Icarus]

You seem to want a fight, but I'm not interested. A few days ago I decided I would no longer post on any of those threads.

 

[Jon-of-arc]

I guess supporting feminism, to me, mostly means not getting in the way too much. Like, the whole point is that women take the lead and get equality on their own terms, and don't need men to do their fighting for them, right? I might occasionally challenge sexism if I see it (and there's no women around to do it), I might occasionally take a pro-feminist line in a discussion, if something comes up.

Sometimes, feminists might do or say things that I don't particularly like, having been conditioned to accept the status quo, and I usually keep my mouth shut and remind myself that I don't have to fight the battle they do.

Reading that back, it seems like being a supporter of ally or whatever often means (to me) keeping my stupid mouth shut (apart from challenging the really obvious stuff). Is there a better way? TBH, I don't really feel that comfortable getting involved - I spent far too long being pretty sexist, in an immature way, that I feel fairly hypocritical even commenting on the matter.