knife violence and murders among youth

[Smokeandsteam]

Useful and important article by criminologists Hall, Treadwell and Winlow below which punctures both of the current wrong headed narratives around this epidemic:

Article excerpt
A Note on Lower-Class Masculinities, Criminality, and the Media Industry

THOUGH THE IDEA OF A "CRISIS OF MASCULINITY" MIGHT BE A HASTY EXPLANATION of the problems experienced by males in today's radically altering world (Beynon, 2002), there is little doubt that the recent foundational change in the capitalist economy has negatively affected those unlucky enough to be born in locales of permanent recession (Taylor, 1999; Lea, 2002). The decline of traditional heavy industries and the communities that grew around them has destabilized what was once a fairly organized context for working-class male culture and biographies, rooted in collectivism and shaped by the rhythms and structures of the industrial economy. Transplantation of capital's socioeconomic heart from these stable industrial settlements to neurotic postindustrial cities and the global arteries of commerce has posed a number of important questions that criminology has yet to address satisfactorily. For instance, the decline of community and the emergence of individualized "lifestyle" consumerism pose serious questions about social order and the maintenance of civilized social interactions (Hall and Winlow, 2004). Answering them requires a critical analysis of the relationship between the neo-capitalist economy, extreme social exclusion, the problematic forms of masculinity (Beynon, 2002), and "street culture" (Jacobs et al., 2003), which are beginning to dominate micro-communities cut off from the legitimate economy and expelled from mainstream society

"Radgies, Gangstas, and Mugs: Imaginary Criminal Identities in the Twilight of the Pseudo-Pacification Process" by Hall, Steve; Winlow, Simon; Ancrum, Craig - Social Justice, Vol. 32, Issue 1, Spring 2005 | Online Research Library: Questia

 

[Patteran]

Doesn't paint a pretty picture when it takes the murder of a suburban girl & a Manchester Grammar School boy to prompt urgent demands for political action on knife crime after so many other thousands of deaths & woundings. Echoes of Judith Butler's 'grievable lives', maybe.

 

[Dogsauce]

^ this.

Was just going to post something similar, the press have found some nice ‘blameless’ respectable-looking white(ish) victims to put on the front page. Stuff never changes and it sickens me.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Doesn't paint a pretty picture when it takes the murder of a suburban girl & a Manchester Grammar School boy to prompt urgent demands for political action on knife crime after so many other thousands of deaths & woundings. Echoes of Judith Butler's 'grievable lives', maybe.

Same as it ever was

 

[Mr Moose]

Useful and important article by criminologists Hall, Treadwell and Winlow below which punctures both of the current wrong headed narratives around this epidemic:

Article excerpt
A Note on Lower-Class Masculinities, Criminality, and the Media Industry

THOUGH THE IDEA OF A "CRISIS OF MASCULINITY" MIGHT BE A HASTY EXPLANATION of the problems experienced by males in today's radically altering world (Beynon, 2002), there is little doubt that the recent foundational change in the capitalist economy has negatively affected those unlucky enough to be born in locales of permanent recession (Taylor, 1999; Lea, 2002). The decline of traditional heavy industries and the communities that grew around them has destabilized what was once a fairly organized context for working-class male culture and biographies, rooted in collectivism and shaped by the rhythms and structures of the industrial economy. Transplantation of capital's socioeconomic heart from these stable industrial settlements to neurotic postindustrial cities and the global arteries of commerce has posed a number of important questions that criminology has yet to address satisfactorily. For instance, the decline of community and the emergence of individualized "lifestyle" consumerism pose serious questions about social order and the maintenance of civilized social interactions (Hall and Winlow, 2004). Answering them requires a critical analysis of the relationship between the neo-capitalist economy, extreme social exclusion, the problematic forms of masculinity (Beynon, 2002), and "street culture" (Jacobs et al., 2003), which are beginning to dominate micro-communities cut off from the legitimate economy and expelled from mainstream society

"Radgies, Gangstas, and Mugs: Imaginary Criminal Identities in the Twilight of the Pseudo-Pacification Process" by Hall, Steve; Winlow, Simon; Ancrum, Craig - Social Justice, Vol. 32, Issue 1, Spring 2005 | Online Research Library: Questia

Yeah, but anyone who grew up in the sixties/seventies will tell you it was rough as hell, more collective or not.

Fighting was everywhere, gigs, football, leaving the pub and I didn’t live in an area of desperate need. I got attacked half a dozen times between 16-18 by randoms I’d never met. My mate Mike not at school one day as someone had run a Stanley knife down his back. Not much safer there as school was a place of regular fights, one kid got a dart in an eye one day. I don’t think I even bothered to mention it at home.

However bad it is today my son has no expectation that any fights will take place at his school, it would not be tolerated.

There does appear something different though. However many times I got chased by a group of blokes it never occurred to me that it would be more than a pasting if they caught up. There seems to be a degree of gratuitous wounding and recklessness about today’s violence or at least that’s what they say at Kings College Hospital. But it’s hard to compare as deaths among youths weren’t big news back then, fights rarely recorded or noted.

I’m not arguing against a class component, nor extreme social exclusion, merely that it isn’t simply because hundreds don’t go to the same factory anymore. Generally it was more widely violent then.

 

[Celyn]

Yeah, but anyone who grew up in the sixties/seventies will tell you it was rough as hell, more collective or not.

Fighting was everywhere, gigs, football, leaving the pub and I didn’t live in an area of desperate need. I got attacked half a dozen times between 16-18 by randoms I’d never met....

I think it might not be the case, really, that anyone who grew up in the seventies will tell you there was fighting everywhere.

I grew up in the seventies in a working-class area in Glasgow. I don't remember all of this "rough as hell" stuff.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I think it might not be the case, really, that anyone who grew up in the seventies will tell you there was fighting everywhere.

I grew up in the seventies in a working-class area in Glasgow. I don't remember all of this "rough as hell" stuff.

I grew up in Manchester and went to school there in the 70s and early 80s, and I remember only too well the fighting that went on. The only difference back then was the fighting was mostly organised. Everyone knew when Moss SIde were visiting (insert my home town), and everyone was prepared for a proper good fight, and the early 80s was the the first time we experienced blades. Nobody had ever dreamt of bringing knives to a fight, until Moss Side started hacking and slashing our lot, then knives became more commonplace.
Don't kid yourself. Fighting was a lot more prevalent back then, but random knife attacks on strangers was almost unheard of.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I grew up in Manchester and went to school there in the 70s and early 80s, and I remember only too well the fighting that went on. The only difference back then was the fighting was mostly organised. Everyone knew when Moss SIde were visiting (insert my home town), and everyone was prepared for a proper good fight, and the early 80s was the the first time we experienced blades. Nobody had ever dreamt of bringing knives to a fight, until Moss Side started hacking and slashing our lot, then knives became more commonplace.
Don't kid yourself. Fighting was a lot more prevalent back then, but random knife attacks on strangers was almost unheard of.

And it was exactly the same in Birmingham.

There was fighting and rucking everywhere and all the time it’s true, but it was practically unheard of for people to die.

Plus knife carrying by lads was not done. It was seen as cowardice and anyone carrying them seen as ‘effeminate’ and unable to handle themselves. The first time I became aware of anyone carrying a knife would have been in my mid teens and even then it was limited to the football and known firm members activity.

 

[Pickman's model]

Same as it ever was

Am I the only person here to remember damilola taylor?

Grievable lives, yeh. But they're not all white or white(ish)

 

[Pickman's model]

And it was exactly the same in Birmingham.

There was fighting and rucking everywhere and all the time it’s true, but it was practically unheard of for people to die.

Plus knife carrying by lads was not done. It was seen as cowardice and anyone carrying them seen as ‘effeminate’ and unable to handle themselves. The first time I became aware of anyone carrying a knife would have been in my mid teens and even then it was limited to the football and known firm members activity.

Out of curiosity did you see the hoolies as effeminate?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Am I the only person here to remember damilola taylor?

Grievable lives, yeh. But they're not all white or white(ish)

Tbf he was 10 and fortunately it is exceedingly rare that 10 year olds are stabbed to death.

 

[Sodapop]

London, if you weren't in the right gang then you had no protection

 

[Pickman's model]

Tbf he was 10 and fortunately it is exceedingly rare that 10 year olds are stabbed to death.

I'm sorry, I thought the point you were making was it was only when auld whitey gets stabbed, and in particular a white girl, that the theme of knife crime gets this sort of attention

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I'm sorry, I thought the point you were making was it was only when auld whitey gets stabbed, and in particular a white girl, that the theme of knife crime gets this sort of attention

Kind of, more that when the victim is atypical that the attention gets focused, whereas every victim is a life cut short, has a mum who will never recover, has other family who will forever be scarred and so on.

 

[Sprocket.]

As I was told as a youngster growing up in an incredibly violent area of South Yorkshire, ‘if tha can’t fate, wear a daft hat’
I quickly learned to use humour and act daft to get out of some terribly sticky moments at times. If I thought I had a chance I’d get stuck in, otherwise try to laugh my way out. I still got some proper hammerings but it would never enter my mind to carry a knife. Have these values been lost to society?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

As I was told as a youngster growing up in an incredibly violent area of South Yorkshire, ‘if tha can’t fate, wear a daft hat’
I quickly learned to use humour and act daft to get out of some terribly sticky moments at times. If I thought I had a chance I’d get stuck in, otherwise try to laugh my way out. I still got some proper hammerings but it would never enter my mind to carry a knife. Have these values been lost to society?

You could and did expect a kicking if you were unlucky or outnumbered or whatever. I’m not pretending their haven’t always been gangs. I’m also not pretending there wasn’t violence on a regular basis.

But teenagers being murdered on this scale and for such trivial reasons? Unprecedented in any gang culture in history. The research I posted earlier sets out the lines of inquiry that must be followed. The dominant narratives - that more cops are the answer (labour) or that this is a modern version of mod/teddy boy/skin/casual culture (liberals) - are both palpably ridiculous

 

[Pickman's model]

You could and did expect a kicking if you were unlucky or outnumbered or whatever. I’m not pretending their haven’t always been gangs. I’m also not pretending there wasn’t violence on a regular basis.

But teenagers being murdered on this scale and for such trivial reasons? Unprecedented in any gang culture in history. The research I posted earlier sets out the lines of inquiry that must be followed. The dominant narratives - that more cops are the answer (labour) or that this is a modern version of mod/teddy boy/skin/casual culture (liberals) - are both palpably ridiculous

it can't be that unprecedented if a 2005 article sets out the lines of inquiry which must be followed.

 

[Treacle Toes]

London, if you weren't in the right gang then you had no protection

London, where and when. A serious question .Certai Cer not long me that for my elder brother s in the 70s and not for my peer group in the 80s either

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I didn't find the 70's or 80's to be particularly violent. I avoided hanging around with 'hard' people though as I thought they were dicks.

Knives have always been used, what does seem to have changed a bit is that kids today feel that the loss of face from a pasting is the worst thing ever, so go to extreme lengths to avoid it, where as amongst fighty twats of yore you had a punch up and either won or lost, it didn't really matter beyond some physical bruising, the ego didn't take the battering and so lived to (literally) fight another day.

 

[andysays]

London, where and when. A serious question .Certai Cer not long me that for my elder brother s in the 70s and not for my peer group in the 80s either

Nor for me or anyone I know/knew. I suspect Sodapop has been on the sodapop themselves to make such a ridiculous claim

 

[bellaozzydog]

I'm sorry, I thought the point you were making was it was only when auld whitey gets stabbed, and in particular a white girl, that the theme of knife crime gets this sort of attention

There is a definite "sleepy village" "white kid" how could this happen? tone to the reporting

 

[crossthebreeze]

Just saw this on facebook.
Alex Beresford, the weatherman on shit show Good Morning Britain, interrupted an interview with Mr Apter, Chairman of the Police Federation of England and Wales about knife crime with some sensible talk. Good on him!

Mr Apter demanded we build more prisons to act as a punishment.

"Prison doesn't work though," Alex shouted across the studio, as the camera panned to him.

The weatherman added: "It does not work. I've grown up in some of these communities you guys are talking about. Prison is not a deterrent. Some of these boys don't fear prison. If you don't change the environment you wont change anything and that's the key thing. This has been happening for years. And it's not always in the media. It won't change. It's going to take several things to come together. Yes policing is one thing."​

Alex later added: "At the end of the day, if you don't change these boys' environment. All of you guys on that side have benefited from the environment you've grown up in. You've benefited from this work environment. I've benefited from it. But these boys, not all of them get to benefit from the enivironment. If we don't show them something else you won't change it, sorry."

Alex continued: "Avon and Somerset Police I know for a fact do knife sweeps. Often you get the innocent young black boy who gets stopped by police and gets frustrated. We've all seem them on social media where they get arrested because they can't control their anger. That's how that relationship with the police breaks down."​

 

[mojo pixy]

I'm reliably informed by an old school friend who recently suggested I move back to Portsmouth, that it's not as violent and scummy as it was when we were kids in the 70's-80's (and it was). I have to believe him, but I also wonder what difference it makes to be a well-to-do middle-aged father-of-three living in the suburbs, rather than a teenage lad at school in the city centre.

 

[Patteran]

Am I the only person here to remember damilola taylor?

Grievable lives, yeh. But they're not all white or white(ish)

I made the original point, & deliberately swerved the word 'white' while highlighting class. The poor sod from Manchester Grammar School hasn't made headlines because of his (absent) whiteness - he's made headlines because he attended a top private school & was murdered on a road where every house costs around a million pounds. I understand why it's important to post counter-examples to challenge lazy thinking, easy narratives. But I stand by the original assertion - the victim in Hale has created more headlines, more calls for action, than previous murders in contexts where headline writers & politicians expect this to happen, & even apparently tolerate it happening. Knife crime has been on the rise in Mcr for years - this is the first time the story has gone national & prompted a visit from the Home Secretary (politicians responding to the coverage, rather than the causes). We have, of course, had community-based responses to the horror of teen murders that have gone beyond grief & outrage & found ways to impact positively - the family of young Jesse James being a fairly recent example - but this cabinet-level response is atypical.

 

[Pickman's model]

I made the original point, & deliberately swerved the word 'white' while highlighting class. The poor sod from Manchester Grammar School hasn't made headlines because of his (absent) whiteness - he's made headlines because he attended a top private school & was murdered on a road where every house costs around a million pounds. I understand why it's important to post counter-examples to challenge lazy thinking, easy narratives. But I stand by the original assertion - the victim in Hale has created more headlines, more calls for action, than previous murders in contexts where headline writers & politicians expect this to happen, & even apparently tolerate it happening. Knife crime has been on the rise in Mcr for years - this is the first time the story has gone national & prompted a visit from the Home Secretary (politicians responding to the coverage, rather than the causes). We have, of course, had community-based responses to the horror of teen murders that have gone beyond grief & outrage & found ways to impact positively - the family of young Jesse James being a fairly recent example - but this cabinet-level response is atypical.

yeh the white(ish) bit came from Dogsauce. the poor sod's alleged assailants are allegedly from the same privileged background, i hear, so that would be utterly unusual. and yeh it has garnered more publicity and (apparent) action, although there's been few days over the last year or two when knife crime has been wholly absent from the papers. i doubt you'll see a home secretary in manchester for many months to come, barring party conferences, and can only wish you would host him more often (not for more stabbings, just to get the cunt out of london).

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm reliably informed by an old school friend who recently suggested I move back to Portsmouth, that it's not as violent and scummy as it was when we were kids in the 70's-80's (and it was). I have to believe him, but I also wonder what difference it makes to be a well-to-do middle-aged father-of-three living in the suburbs, rather than a teenage lad at school in the city centre.

i'd have thought that parents know rather less than they believe of what their children experience or hear about.

 

[mojo pixy]

i'd have thought that parents know rather less than they believe of what their children experience or hear about.

I know my parents would have denied a lot of what happened around me, had I told them more of it. I don't think generations change much in this respect.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Treat knife crime like a disease - Javid



Treat knife crime like terrorism, urges MP





Any other offers? A war? A plague? An earthquake?

 

[Pickman's model]

Treat knife crime like a disease - Javid

View attachment 163710

Treat knife crime like terrorism, urges MP

View attachment 163713



Any other offers? A war? A plague? An earthquake?

an asteroid strike

an unwelcome piece of junk mail (which is the level of urgency you're actually going to see)

 

[ska invita]

Any other offers? A war? A plague? An earthquake?

A Something I DIdnt Give A Shit About Until Yesterday (and wont again next week)