Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
But even so, even accepting that the boarding was illegal; why get mad if someone mentions that somebody on the ship maybe wanted to be a martyr?
Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.
- Thread starter danny la rouge
- Start date
But even so, even accepting that the boarding was illegal; why get mad if someone mentions that somebody on the ship maybe wanted to be a martyr?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
the fact that someone might have been prepared to die to show the world what israel was doing or prepared to die in the name of a good cause is seen as an indication of "terrorism" and is being used by that by the israeli defence forces shows how far they've got from ... well, anything ...
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I'm not getting mad. Read my post.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
I don't think so. In fact, I think you're the first person to make that suggestion.
Paulie Tandoori
shut it you egg!
because you shift the "blame" for the impetus of the incident perhaps? because you contribute to the idea that this was poor old david responding to big old goliath. even tho that's clearly utter yarbles maybe?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
the six million are referred to in jewish services on the holocaust as martyrs johnny. and that is what they are. they died because they were jews and in many cases they died for living a jewish life and doing good for the world. they are martyrs, and tradionally, all victims of anti-semitism have been seen as such. regardless of whether they killed anyone (and the huge majority of them, of course, didn't).
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
McKenzie's suggestion on QT was that these people (he referred specifically to 5 of the dead) wanted to be martyred according to their families, and that these were the guys that kicked off at the IDF, causing the shootings.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
In the middle ages, jews had their families tortured to death in front of them to get them to convert to christianity. in many cases, their families begged them to refuse and so they all held out, and were killed anyway.
they are all martyrs, according to the jewish religion, because they were not cowardly, and died for what they believed in. it would have been more sensible to convert to christianity to save themselves but would they have been able to look themselves in the face afterwards to think they obeyed the instructions of scum who had tortured and murdered thousands of people in the name of "religion", so they prefered to go down for what they believed.
they are all martyrs, according to the jewish religion, because they were not cowardly, and died for what they believed in. it would have been more sensible to convert to christianity to save themselves but would they have been able to look themselves in the face afterwards to think they obeyed the instructions of scum who had tortured and murdered thousands of people in the name of "religion", so they prefered to go down for what they believed.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Well, if true (and I can find nothing to corroborate what he said) it could go some way to explaining the massive death toll on the Marmara.
Poll?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Why are you looking for things to try and mitigate the israeli involvement in this.
Why are you searching around for things?
If a burglar breaks in to your house and kills you does it make a difference, once you're dead, whether you're the sort of person who would defend their property at any cost or someone who just wants a quiet life?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Should it make a difference I mean. If someone breaks into your house and stabs you 50 times should it make a difference whether you are the sort of person who is always going on about hte lack of gun control laws and the right to defend your own property or a sort of person who doesn't care about all that? Should it make a difference in how the murderer is treated by society?
free spirit
more tea vicar?
I know a fair few of the Islamic terrorists recently have been not actually very proficient terrorists in terms of their failures to understand the basics of blowing things up, but if any of these people were going to Palestine to be terrorists, then they must set a new standard of ineptitude.
If they were determined to be terrorists, surely they'd have managed to smuggle aboard some marginally better weapons than some sticks, spanners and kitchen knives. It's not like Gaza is particularly short of stick, spanners and kitchen knives to use as weapons against the israeli's, never mind people desperate enough to take up arms against them. Had they been terrorists then they'd have been smuggling as many explosives and proper weapons in as possible, not a few sticks.
defending yourselves against violent attack by armed commandos illegally boarding your boats in international waters is not terrorism... but sending boatloads and helicopter loads of armed commandos to illegally board boats in international waters, and in doing so killing 9 people, and injuring many more meets any definition of terrorism I'm aware of.
this apparent attempt to smear the dead as terrorists / jihadists is so ridiculous I can barely believe they're trying it.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
It's not about mitigating the Israeli involvement, it's about understanding what happened.
Well this takes us back to my earlier posts. If my actions were so irresponsible that they caused the burglar to shoot me or someone else that he wouldn't have otherwise, I would be partially responsible for their deaths. Simply because I could have prevented them by taking a different course of action, regardless of the illegality of the burglars presence.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
.Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
You and others just love the word 'blame' as if geopolitics was the same as grade 6, and we're getting to the bottom of who pulled the fire alarm.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
Are the jewish Israelis who die in a Tel Aviv restaurant via a car bomb or a suicide belt, martyrs?
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
Because often with crimes, we investigate all the circumstances. It just seems to be something that gets done.
You suggesting that it shouldn't happen in this case?
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
You know what suicide by cop is, right?
Let's say someone commits suicide by cop. Should the cop be reprimanded and maybe charged criminally, as he would be if it were the premeditated shooting of a bystander?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
No (in my opinion - others may disagree).
because they didn't die because they were jews, they didn't die as a result of anti-semitism, they died because of their governments policies, which doesn't make their deaths any less tragic of course, but it can't be seen as part of the same thing. because one is political the other is not.
that doesn't mean that their deaths aren't tragic, in the same way someone who's died in a road accident is still tragic, even though they didn't die defending anything, just living their lives.
but hey perhaps those israelis are martyrs after all because they died as a result of an evil and apostate government creating conditions which breed suicide bombing and terrorism, deliberately.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
Does the Hamas Charter say anything about Jews?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Ah, ok.
My point here has been somewhat different. I'm all for robust self-defence as long as it doesn't make the situation worse. If a stranger breaks into your home and you have a reasonable chance of expelling him, then batter or shoot him, fair play. But if you wake up naked and he has a gun pointed at your head, you'd be foolish not to do what he asks as the most probable outcome would be you getting shot.
Attempting to repel an armed assault by Israeli special forces with spanners is similarly foolish, imo.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
When I read things like this, it makes me think that it might have something to do with the jews.
What do you think?
The brothers of apes and pigs. That's pretty inflammatory language.
What do you think?
The brothers of apes and pigs. That's pretty inflammatory language.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
I'm not the one referring to jews as 'the brothers of apes and pigs.'
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