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Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

A long, indefinite truce is indeed the only way to end a war.

This is my problem with economic sanctions. It totally stores up trouble for later. I'd be happier with a truce or if necessary a DMZ (likely as complicated as The City& the City). The equivalent of standing between someone getting beaten like a ginger stepchild and the person handing out the beating.
 
Johnny if you went to Israel I doubt you would be sticking up for the IDF its the most racist place I've ever been too.

It's not like you get a choice about conscription there.

The military interferes with Israeli childrens' education from a young age.

The military are trying to make it illegal to encourage conscientious objection as a reason not to join the IDF.

They also want to ban groups like New Profile who call for the demilitarisation of Israeli civil society, and by default, they mean to go after the various refusnik groups, even those who work with ex-Palestinian fighters if they're successful.
 
This is my problem with economic sanctions. It totally stores up trouble for later. I'd be happier with a truce or if necessary a DMZ (likely as complicated as The City& the City). The equivalent of standing between someone getting beaten like a ginger stepchild and the person handing out the beating.

Economic sanctions can only harm the small business person, the industry, the service-provider, and the employer. In turn, that embitters society as they struggle financially. We've seen it have no effect on Hamas and its ability to administrate in Gaza. We've seen how much it harms a civil society. So no, economic sanctions are not what I would suggest, for either side.

We need to end the blockade. As Palestinian economy grows, so will the Israeli economy - whilst one suffers the other can never achieve its full potential.
 
That's only true if you believe that self-defence doesn't need to be proportional to the threat. If you accept that self-defence does indeed need to be proportional to the threat, then questions of foolishness are immaterial.

Not quite.

The question of foolishness is absolutely central to the soggy-Zionist commentators, as featured in Ha'aretz.

That's because, like Zionists of any other consitency, they don't really care about anyone who's not entitled to Israeli citizenship. (Some acknowledge that they should.)

When the news first came through I also indulged in a bit of "how could they be so fucking stupid" to distance myself from the possibility that friends and acquaintances were among the dead...
 
So if someone were firing Qassam rockets into Brixton, you'd be fine with that.

What with the low death toll and all.

Any familiarity with the geography of Israel, Johnny? There's nowhere with the population density of Brixton in range of the parts of Gaza the Qassams are launched from. The few towns (mostly low density) in range of the Qassams are surrounded by open land, where the vast majority of the Qassams land, and as both frogwoman and I have mentioned, most housing is proof against a projectile that relies on it's momentum to make the small explosive charge effective.
Me, I'd feel comfortable living where those who are in range of the Qassams are, because I'm a rational being who knows that I'm more likely to be run over by a truck than killed or injured by a Qassam.
 
The re-flagging could have been for insurance purposes.
Yeah I been reading some more on there and amidst lots of opinions, someone says pretty much the same thing...

Someone also links to some background info on the current ownership of the mavi-mamara here

and from 'Monty' again, details of the change of flag:
Mavi Marmara has a IMO number of 9005869. This is equivalent to the chassis number or VIN on a car. This does not change when the ship's name is changed.

On marinetraffic.com it indicates the vessel's flag was indeed Comoros at the time of the incident.

Vessel's Name Flag Call Sign Last Reported
MAVI MARMARA Comoros D6FU2 2010-05-31 01:56
MAVI MARMARA Comoros D6FM6 2010-05-22 05:27
MAVI MARMARA Turkey TCBY 2010-05-01 00:41

On digital-seas.com it is listed as Comoros flagged.
 
Activists say some people who were initially on the flotilla are missing. They are also telling stories of horror, carnage and pure barbarism at the hands of Israeli officials. In a shocking account, Humanitarian Aid Foundation (İHH) President Bülent Yıldırım, who returned on Thursday, said a photographer, whose first name was Cevdet, was shot in the forehead by a soldier one meter away from him.

“Our Cevdet [Kılıçlar], he is a press member. He has become a martyr. All he was doing was taking pictures. They smashed his skull into pieces. We soon made out that these were real bullets they were firing. Rubber bullets also kill because you shoot at very close range, between one-and-a-half and two meters.”

Kevin Ovenden of Britain, an activist on the ship that arrived in İstanbul on Thursday, also said a man who had pointed a camera at the soldiers was shot directly through the forehead with live ammunition, with the exit wound blowing away the back of his skull. There were also claims that Israeli official reports on the number of people killed are untruthful. Speaking to journalists at Atatürk International Airport shortly after his return, Yıldırım said:

Until now they have returned nine dead bodies, but our list is bigger. There are people missing. We saw 38 injured who were brought back to us by doctors after the attack. Now they are saying there are 21 people who have been injured.

Yıldırım was on the main passenger ship, the Mavi Marmara, which the Israeli navy attacked at the start of its raid. Another witness, Yücel Köse, who was on the ship Gazze, repeated Yıldırım’s allegations of missing people, saying:

The Mavi Marmara was bombed right in front of our eyes. They threw the wounded into the water.

Köse said the soldiers were upset when some of their men were held by activists aboard the Mavi Marmara. Turkey’s Council of Forensic Medicine completed examining some of the bodies. The findings have not yet been announced. It will be a few weeks before the experts get back all the results, but initial statements from doctors confirm Yıldırım’s account of the shootings at close range. According to İHH official Ömer Yağmur, who spoke to the doctors, 19-year-old Furkan Doğan was killed by four bullets to the head, all fired at close range, and one bullet into his chest, also fired at close range. He said Doğan was studying at a private high school in Kayseri and hoped to become a doctor in the future. The council also confirmed yesterday that eight of the nine bodies brought back from Israel belong to Turkish citizens. The ninth person was identified as a US citizen of Turkish origin. More than 500 activists who were brought to Turkey were examined on Thursday by 120 forensic medicine experts and their assistants.

Activist İdris Şimşek, who also arrived on Thursday, claims that four wounded activists were thrown into the sea. Şimşek also stated that there was immense psychological pressure on the activists. Şimşek said they expected some harassment but had no inkling of what would happen, noting that they were not expecting an armed attack. He also mentioned that there were no weapons, including a small Swiss army knife that some foreign press organs claimed was on the ship. He stated, as many other activists have, that the person who was waving a white flag to surrender was shot by soldiers. He said that he saw many people lying in puddles of blood after the soldiers opened fire. Erol Demir, another activist on the Mavi Marmara, said they had footage of the chaos and the carnage on the ship, emphasizing that the footage will show the real face of Israeli soldiers to the entire world:

They even shot those who surrendered. Many of our friends saw this. They told me that there were handcuffed people who were shot.

All activists stated that Israeli helicopters sprayed cold seawater onto the ship for three hours. Hakan Albayrak, a journalist from the Yeni Şafak daily who was also on the ship, said:

It was an outright massacre, what Israel did out there. They attacked us in international waters. We protected our ship. We had no weapons. I think we lost more people.

Activist Özlem Şahin Ermiş said 60 soldiers took her hostage. The prisoners were harassed by violent attack dogs and some were badly bitten. She also noted that they were not fed any food or given anything to drink during their initial interrogation on the ship. The İHH said the activists Çelebi Bozan, Osman Kurç and Aydın Ataç were definitely still missing. These individuals might still be in a hospital in Israel, İHH officials said. Meanwhile, the full list of the names of the nine Turks whose corpses were sent to Turkey and their hometowns were announced as İbrahim Bilgen (from Siirt), Ali Haydar Bengi (from Diyarbakır), Cevdet Kılıçlar (from İstanbul, İHH staff), Çetin Topçuoğlu (from Adana, national taekwondo team member), Necdet Yıldırım (from Malatya, İHH staff), Furkan Doğan (from Kayseri), Fahri Yaldız (from Adıyaman), Cengiz Songür (from İzmir) and Cengiz Akyüz (from Hatay). Doğan was only 19. He was killed with four bullets to the head and one to the chest. Ahmet Aydan Beker (from Kayseri, critically injured), Mehmet Ali Zeybek (from Diyarbakır, critically wounded and under arrest), and Uğur Süleyman Söylemez (from İstanbul) are being treated in Israeli hospitals.
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/n...n-9-threw-wounded-into-sea-witnesses-say.html
 
some shit levity

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JC3 would you answer my question please.

What would do YOU think should be done about Israel?

Pretty please.
 
In no particular order:

A ban on all firearms. People may have fireworks displays if they find the lack of loud bangs and flashes impossible to live without.

Committment from both Israel and Palestine, with time-scales of no more than 2 years, to commit to full demilitarisation of their administrations for both Israeli and Palestinian societies.

An end to conscription in Israel and paramilitary organisations in Palestine.

For both Israel and Palestine, their young people be allowed to continue their education or apprenticeships with full state support to age 21, then live their lives well, be the best chefs, scientists and bin men they can be.

For those whose youths whose lives have already been scarred by being forced by their elders to be martyrs for ethnonationalist causes, free counselling, self-help groups, free drug-addiction programmes (not methadone-based), and on a case-by-case basis, compensation for the varying degrees of trauma caused by the conflict.

There is more...

This thread is about a current event that all, including me, agree is illegal, based on the facts provided. But after being on this board and discussing this issue many times, I've come to hear a history of Israel related as follows:

The place got started back in the 40s when Haganah or the Stern Gang or someone, went into palestinian villages and massacred innocent people, in order to create fear in the others which strongly encouraged them to flee from their homes, leaving them vacant for immigrating jewish refugees.

Over the years, there have been many incidents of atrocities carried out or countenanced by the Israelis. Sabra and Chatilla come to mind.

In the 60s, Israel seized territory from neighbors via military action, and never gave it back.

There have been a number of peace initiatives brokered by various people, and Israel has derailed or broken all of them.

Israel attempts to cut off the water to the palestinians, and seems to be trying to commit genocide by depriving them of the necessities of life.

That is the history that I've had related to me, here on the boards.



So if that is what you deem the Israelis to be, why are you talking about disarmament, 'commitments from Israel' etc.? How can these sorts of things succeed with a state that massacres innocents, then lies and breaks treaties?

The history as related to me here, reveals a criminal, even monstrous regime. Do you expect reason and negotiation to succeed with such an entity?
 
JC3 would you answer my question please.

What would do YOU think should be done about Israel?

Pretty please.

I answered this long ago in the thread. I don't think there is a solution as the world is currently constituted. The solution will come when the world stops depending on oil as its main energy source. That won't happen for a few years, but I believe it isn't that far off.

Once oil goes, the intense interest and inolvement of the world in Middle Eastern matters will subside. At that point, the players in the Middle East will work out their differences, one way or another. There's no guarantee that it will be a palatable solution, but a solution will come nonetheless.
 
Any familiarity with the geography of Israel, Johnny? There's nowhere with the population density of Brixton in range of the parts of Gaza the Qassams are launched from. The few towns (mostly low density) in range of the Qassams are surrounded by open land, where the vast majority of the Qassams land, and as both frogwoman and I have mentioned, most housing is proof against a projectile that relies on it's momentum to make the small explosive charge effective.
Me, I'd feel comfortable living where those who are in range of the Qassams are, because I'm a rational being who knows that I'm more likely to be run over by a truck than killed or injured by a Qassam.

Wouldn't you prefer that no rockets were being launched in your direction? It would reduce the chance of death by rocket, from very small, to nil.
 
This has been discussed and answered time and time again. The fact is you choose to completely ignore those answers
Hmm lets see...
I'll ask the same question again: the anti zionist rhetoric is rife. So, the question is: given that Israel consistently breaks peace treaties, doesn't listen to its allies, and is continuing on a course of genocide against the Palestinians, what is to be done?
How about NATO countries stop actively supporting Israel, e.g. stop selling weapons to Israel.
 
How about NATO countries stop actively supporting Israel, stop selling weapons to Israel, stop blocking binding UN resolutions against Israel.

Those things are a start, but you'll notice that N Korea continues to have a large army and develop nuclear weapons in spite of being a pariah nation. It, and other countries, also export banned weapons and technology to each other.
 
Those things are a start, but you'll notice that N Korea continues to have a large army and develop nuclear weapons in spite of being a pariah nation. It, and other countries, also export banned weapons and technology to each other.

This is the point though - it is a pariah nation, and is treated as such by the international community. It does not have huge influence in other nations domestic politics, it does not have most of the worlds media spinning its line for it, and it does not recieve almost total protection from any kind of national criticism.

As has been said elsewhere, if you want to compare NK to Israel then you should really make the point that - all things being equal in the Security Council - it really should be North Korea investigating why it sank that South Korean ship.
 
Those things are a start, but you'll notice that N Korea continues to have a large army and develop nuclear weapons in spite of being a pariah nation. It, and other countries, also export banned weapons and technology to each other.

We can only do what we can do.
 
I answered this long ago in the thread. I don't think there is a solution as the world is currently constituted. The solution will come when the world stops depending on oil as its main energy source. That won't happen for a few years, but I believe it isn't that far off.

Once oil goes, the intense interest and inolvement of the world in Middle Eastern matters will subside. At that point, the players in the Middle East will work out their differences, one way or another. There's no guarantee that it will be a palatable solution, but a solution will come nonetheless.
So the history of struggle centred around Jerusalem has been all about the oil industry has it? :hmm:

That displays a certain degree of a lack of understanding of the history of one of the oldest cities in the world tbf.
 
So the history of struggle centred around Jerusalem has been all about the oil industry has it? :hmm:

That displays a certain degree of a lack of understanding of the history of one of the oldest cities in the world tbf.

Do you think the American sponsorship of Israel as a proxy in the middle east has anything to do with oil?
 
As has been said elsewhere, if you want to compare NK to Israel then you should really make the point that - all things being equal in the Security Council - it really should be North Korea investigating why it sank that South Korean ship.

I don't want to. I was pointing out that arms embargoes etc get broken all the time, and pariah nations are able to arm themselves just fine.
 
I have slow internet and I really don't trust a link from a site www.wimp.com.

Could you please quote some of it?

Two 14 year old Palestinian girls at the UN school (the one bombed with phosphorous bombs by the Israeli's) have invented a revolutionary cane for the blind. Took six months to research and develop. There are two sensors and buzzers to warn of obstacles and also the cane vibrates in two places for users who also maybe deaf. This, despite the poverty and difficulties of life they face living in a refugee camp.
 
And the same again Israeli fucking security. Never ever any fucking mention of Palestinian security.

Talk of ooh but Hamas would like Israel not to exist. Israel are working on making sure Palestine doesn't exist every day.


The language of news reporting and discussion is what first made me think wait a minute. Something's not right here when I was watching the news 25 years ago.

It's Israel visiting violence you prick, McKenzie.
 
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