Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

[danny la rouge]

btw, not surprised to see super-annuated trots and ex AFA supporting violent self defence

Do you not support self defence?

 

[cesare]

so. why have so many posters spent ages on this thread, trying to diminish or deconstruct the actions of the activists on the deck,

btw, not surprised to see super-annuated trots and ex AFA supporting violent self defence

The only reason so much time was spent on it, was because Spymaster decided to devote his day to constructing a case that the aid workers shouldn't have resisted.

 

[tangentlama]

In light of all that: Photoshop: Unlikely. Completely irrelevant picture: Likely

Undecided, but not beyond the realms of possiblity.

Photo conveniently shows the knife that was discovered to have been part of a cache from years ago.

It will be possible to find out as the others in that photograph will surely remember a man posing with best grimace and a very large knife. There is a subject off-camera, as the cameras held by the people in the background are all pointing at something. Meanwhile, a man brandishes a knife with a look of anger on his face.

 

[Structaural]

Interesting Chomsky ownage of Israeli journalist:

Interesting in light of the lame trolls on this thread anyway...

 

[past caring]

so. why have so many posters spent ages on this thread, trying to diminish or deconstruct the actions of the activists on the deck

Errrr....because the actions of the activists didn't, in reality, come anywhere approaching the level of violence that was being meted out to them by the IDF? You asked why posters hadn't made clear their support for the protesters resisting with the use of weapons. I said that I'd have been happy to see them use a greater use of force than they actually did.

My saying that doesn't suddenly change the actual level of violence employed by the protesters - which paled into insignificance when compared to that of the IDF.

btw, not surprised to see super-annuated trots and ex AFA supporting violent self defence

Yes - consistent and proud. And rather that than some mealy-mouthed zionist apologist. So do one.

 

[tangentlama]

Interesting Choamsky ownage of Israeli journalist:

Interesting in light of the lame trolls on this thread anyway...

Fantastic focus on Dershowitz's lies and how dangerous people like him are for Israel's future.

http://www.chomsky.info/letters/20060817.htm

 

[treelover]

Interesting in light of the lame trolls on this thread anyway...
Reply With Quote

just because they have different views than you, they are troll? ffs, this is a discussion board isn't it?

 

[treelover]

here we go again, if you have any doubts you are a Zionist, as usual you don't know mine or anyone elses actual beliefs on I/P, or levels of support for one or the other, in my case fundraising often for the local PSC

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Without getting drawn into the plusses or minuses of the Canadian Navy

Both sides in this situation have made complete cunts of themselves.
The protesters knew that this "breaking the blockade" action would have consequences, and probably violent ones at that.

You are making assumptions. Some boats had previously sailed through unhindered, so while it would probably right to say they might wonder whether there be violent consequences, they might also have wondered whether they would be permitted to pass unhindered as other boats in the past.

They were clearly offered other options such as being escorted to a port

So far as I'm aware, this is disputed. Israeli spokesman Mark Regev has asserted this. But I've also come across assertions elsewhere from the activists side saying this offer hadn't been made in advance. Although I'd be happy to stand corrected.

and having the contents of the ships inspected and (I can only hope) delivered due to the very public nature of this protest.

Any such offers would likely be seen in a dubious light, because Israel doesn't have a good track record of delivering aid. According to UNRWA/UNWRA? only a fraction of the aid that's needed is getting through. There are all kinds of facts and statistics, provided by international aid agencies, UN and Red Cross/Crescent and so on, which back up those assertions. Those aren't claims by the activists. Those are the opinions o independent international humanitarian aid workers.

And then there's also the indisputable fact that the Israelis ban lots of random things, for example coriander and ginger are currently on the list of prohibited items, as are tinned and dried fruits. Any deliveries of aid are subject to the whims of the Israeli authorities. So in the months when aid flotillas are being organised and supplies bought, they might stock up on coriander and ginger and dried apricots, for example, but by the time they are approaching Gaza the most up to date list of prohibited items might say that coriander and ginger and dried apricots aren't allowed into the Gaza Strip. There's no knowing what the policy might be from one day to the next, so it makes it nearly impossible to predict what aid the Israelis will allow through, so aid monies might be 'wasted' on buying needed goods that are no longer permitted. (And that doesn't negate the need for those items on the ground.) And seriously, what possible "terrorist application" might coriander or ginger or dried apricots have?

Here's the list of currently prohibited goods:
http://www.economist.com/node/16264970

You'll see that fabric isn't permitted, but clothes are. I've read an article recently that stated aid of a clothes shipment was held up by the Israeli authorities at Ashdod port for around a year. Maybe clothes were not permitted at the time? Who knows. But according to the article I read, if that is correct, by the time the clothes were allowed into Gaza, after being held up for a year in Ashdod, they were mildewed and unusable.

The footage provided by the Israelis (if not interfered with) clearly shows that some of the people on this "peace mission" came looking for a fight...which they got.

You're projecting. How can you say that the footage "clearly shows that some of the people on this "peace mission" came looking for a fight"? It doesn't clearly show that at all. It *might* show that, of course. But it just as well *might* show some terrified otherwise peaceful activists whose biological 'fight or flight' instinct has kicked into fight mode, given that they're on a boat in the middle of the sea more than 60 miles off the coast and there's nowhere to flee to. The footage does not "clearly show" what you're asserting at all. That's your interpretation. Personally speaking, I don't know what it shows, other than fighting. I don't know whether people on a peace mission came looking for a fight (if so, if it was pre-meditated, then they were lamentably poorly equipped, when they must have known that they were heading for a fight with the IDF who would be armed to the hilt, and I don't know about you, but if I was spoiling for a fight and wanted to kick some IDF ass, I'd be wanting more than a broom handle and a Swiss army knife).

On the other hand, the Israelis basically commited an act of piracy on these same ships as they were (it appears) well outside of the 68 (?) mile zone that they had chosen as their territorial waters. At the very least this is stupidity, some would also argue criminal. Why the IDF would not have waited for the ships to be in Israeli waters then simply disabled and towed them into port without all this bloodshed is beyond me...

You're accepting as fact the Israeli territorial claim, which isn't recognised by the international community.

The flotilla had no intention whatsoever to sail into Israeli waters. Their stated intention was to sail from international waters into Palestinian territory as recognised and accepted by countless UN resolutions.

And apparently, piracy is when bandits do it.

When the armed forces of a nation do it with the consent and authorisation of their superior officers/government, when they attack a foreign-flagged vessel in international waters, it's either an act of war/war crime against that foreign nation... or, if they're acting against orders, if they're acting outwith their remit and their mission, then it's the simple crime of murder and the jurisdiction in which the perpetrators ought to be tried is the country whose flag the vessel was flying.

The images of both parties that I have seen are disturbing, and I feel that the more reactionary elements of both sides have now accomplished what they were after, which is more discord.
Discord is after all the name of the game in all this Israel versus the rest of the Middle East situation...
And no, I do not want to be dragged into the whole "Israel right to exist/old borders/Palestinian refugees and their own role to play/Zionist agenda/antisemitism/religion/argument".

Why? Because the old borders, 1967 borders issue is fundamental to the state of play today. Saying that the old borders argument is irrelevant or not to be raked over supports the Israeli policy of increasing encroachment onto Palestinian territory, more 'facts on the ground', inch by inch, mile by mile. And the more the facts on the ground argument is condoned, the more inches and more miles will be taken.

Just so sick and tired of seeing how the multitudes ON BOTH SIDES suffer while the politicians make careers out of all this.

Well this, I can heartily agree with.

 

[Blagsta]

so. why have so many posters spent ages on this thread, trying to diminish or deconstruct the actions of the activists on the deck,

btw, not surprised to see super-annuated trots and ex AFA supporting violent self defence

They haven't. Are you sure you're reading the right thread?

 

[Blagsta]

just because they have different views than you, they are troll? ffs, this is a discussion board isn't it?

You're not on the right thread are you.

 

[frogwoman]

not that anyone disputing it is a zionist but i just don't see the relevance of going on about the actions of the activists.

 

[TAE]

so. why have so many posters spent ages on this thread, trying to diminish or deconstruct the actions of the activists on the deck

Perhaps not all agree that the soldiers should have been killed?

The meta-data from the photos implies they were mostly all taken years ago except for the tiny butterfly knife

It has been argued that the date on the camera might well be wrong, for example because the battery had been changed.

Even if that is the case, it's very sloppy work by the israelis.

He uses 'shahid' in it's literal sense, meaning 'witness'.

Interesting, the 1st century greek word 'martyr' also means witness.

 

[Spymaster]

Most people (apart from Spymaster) have defended their right to self defence.

I support their right to self-defence.

I just think that exercising that right in the way that some did was deeply foolish.

 

[8ball]

not that anyone disputing it is a zionist but i just don't see the relevance of going on about the actions of the activists.

When losing the argument, create distractions until something occurs to you.

 

[cesare]

Interesting Choamsky ownage of Israeli journalist:

Interesting in light of the lame trolls on this thread anyway...

I enjoyed watching that, thanks for the link.

 

[TAE]

On cue, the British press uncritically follow:

Not quite. They nicely contradict the ITIC:

The IHH, which is not on US or European terrorist lists, denies accusations of ties to terrorist groups.

The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Centre (ITIC) — an Israel-based NGO with close ties to the country’s military — does not dispute the IHH’s legitimate philanthropic activities, but it says it is an overt supporter of Hamas, branded by Israel, the EU and US as a terrorist organisation.

 

[tarannau]

I believe Spymaster is confusing self defence with capitulation.

What self defence techniques would you use against a surprise attack by dangling men in masks btw?

 

[Spymaster]

When losing the argument, create distractions until something occurs to you.

There was no argument to lose you cock.

Read the thread or fuck off.

 

[tarannau]

I've read the thread and you should do the same tbh.

What self defence techniques would you say would have been acceptable Spy?

 

[8ball]

Never sure what difference if any online petitions make, but guess it at least lets the powers-that-be know that we've noticed and would like to know more about what went on, why, and whether anyone will ever take responsibility

http://www.38degrees.org.uk/gaza-aid-attack

(sorry if pearoast)

 

[ViolentPanda]

"If the knife exists, you MUST convict!", to paraphrase Johnny Cockroach Cochrane.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Trying to cast the launching of the projectiles as some sort of comedy routine acts to trivialize the threat of death that they represent.

Go look up the death-count for Qassam attacks in the last ten years. That extremely low death-count shows that fewer Israeli citizens are killed by those crude long-range mortars, than are killed by left-over ordnance. The threat of death attributable to a Qassam (especially in a country where most of the housing stock is built from thick-cast reinforced concrete) is indeed trivial and therefore worthy of trivialisation.

Just thought I'd cast your sententious fake-concern in context to the "facts on the ground", as it were.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Given the success rate posted above? No. They are a like a drunk man throwing feeble punches. Compared to US supplied real missiles that can put a missile into a moving car from half a mile away it is the most rubbish of weaponry

Yup. Even a standard mortar round is launched from a tube at least 5 times the rounds' length, and is sighted using a tried and tested system. A Qassam is like a bottle rocket: It just goes (if you're lucky) in the direction you point it until the fuel is spent, and then falls.

 

[danny la rouge]

Interesting Choamsky ownage of Israeli journalist:

Interesting in light of the lame trolls on this thread anyway...

Thanks for that. Well worth 20 mins of anyone's time. I do't know how he stayed so patient in the face of such idiocy. He's looking and sounding much more frail lately, isn't he?

 

[ViolentPanda]

pfft, try it Prof Godwin. The Israelis have nukes and a 'never again' mentality. Talking to frogwoman about this she reckons it was forged in the 1880's pogroms and then the Holocaust.

The problem being that while "never again" is an eminently sensible stance, some on the Israeli right (and some of their supporters in other countries) have taken the position as a launch-point for pre-emptive "preventative" action, as well as a justification for "security" and "defence" operations that are involved with expropriation of land and the clearance from that land of its' people.

 

[Structaural]

just because they have different views than you, they are troll? ffs, this is a discussion board isn't it?

Nah, they be trolls (what's good about Urban75 though, is instead of feeding them, they drag them out from under their bridges, slap them around, make them look stupid and put them back. Said trolls then sit their with stupid grins on their faces thinking they're winning while everyone else is laughing and pointing)

Or, they are just amazingly fucking stupid, then.
I've had to put a few on ignore just to get through this thread and read the interesting and informative responses.

Chomsky's response to the attack (sorry if it's been posted before, I'm still catching up):
http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2010/06/02-8

The editors of the London Guardian are quite right to say that "If an armed group of Somali pirates had yesterday boarded six vessels on the high seas, killing at least 10 passengers and injuring many more, a Nato taskforce would today be heading for the Somali coast." It is worth bearing in mind that the crime is nothing new.
For decades, Israel has been hijacking boats in international waters between Cyprus and Lebanon, killing or kidnapping passengers, sometimes bringing them to prisons in Israel including secret prison/torture chambers, sometimes holding them as hostages for many years.

 

[danny la rouge]

Chomsky's response to the attack (sorry if it's been posted before, I'm still catching up):
http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2010/06/02-8

I hadn't seen it. Brief, but true.

 

[cesare]

Thanks for that. Well worth 20 mins of anyone's time. I do't know how he stayed so patient in the face of such idiocy. He's looking and sounding much more frail lately, isn't he?

I was thinking that while I was watching it (the frailty).

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's not just zionists though. There's a closing ranks deal going on ...prob 60% of my customers/contacts are jewish (none orthodox) and even though that's a small sample, if you get into proper conversation about what's going on in Middle East they get well uncomfortable but bottom line is support Israel.

That's one of the main reasons I don't bother with synagogue anymore. I'm fed up with the "my country, right or wrong" attitude that pervades any conversation about Israel, and the unthinking assumption that the state of Israel acts in the best interests of World Jewry when a look at the facts shows us otherwise.

And I get that 'brinksmanship' thing that Israel does ... I do it. IMO the US and NATO need to grow some, but that's unlikely cos the US are just interested in the main chance (for them) and NATO prove over and over again that they're toothless and not worth Israel's respect.

Just as happened with the blue berets (UN troops) in Lebanon.