Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

[Johnny Canuck3]

By who?

I don't know. I'm asking for your solutions.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

pfft, try it Prof Godwin. .

I'm always amused by this. Arguably the First World War, the rise of the Nazis in Germany, and Second World War were the most significant geopolitical events of the Twentieth Century, culminating in mass death, mass migration of people and whole societies, the fall of some empires, and the rise of others. Given their propinquity, their effects continue to be felt constantly to the present day.

But if you mention it, you've broken an internet rule.

 

[Flavour]

my solution is that the UN take control over the whole of the 'Holy Land' and dismantle both the Israeli and Palestinian 'States'.

if you can't play nicely, nobody's having it.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

my solution is that the UN take control over the whole of the 'Holy Land' and dismantle both the Israeli and Palestinian 'States'.

if you can't play nicely, nobody's having it.

Invasion, then?

 

[DotCommunist]

Godwins refers solely to the nazis and it isn't breaking an internet rule other than it must be pointed out when the first person on a thread uses it because that is tradition. It's not like I crowed 'Godwins' as some kind of discussion winning point. I merely observed it.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Godwins refers solely to the nazis and it isn't breaking an internet rule other than it must be pointed out when the first person on a thread uses it because that is tradition. It's not like I crowed 'Godwins' as some kind of discussion winning point. I merely observed it.

I know, but it's like you're having an adult conversation, then the 12 year old pipes in with 'tag: you're it!'.

You know?

 

[Doctor Carrot]

I don't know. I'm asking for your solutions.

I've already given the solution. Everything is out of the question unless America orders Israel to comply with regulations and agree with what the rest of the world supports (including the Arab League and Hamas), but to indulge you in your 'what if' question then no, military action would be an extremely bad idea against Israel as it would mark the beginning of the end for the middle east as a land mass.

 

[DotCommunist]

Bitch please, if you don't observe Godwins how will he ever feel validated?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Bitch please, if you don't observe Godwins how will he ever feel validated?

Fuck Godwins with a rusty toilet auger.

 

[dylans]

I don't know. I'm asking for your solutions.

This is Gush shalom's solution


Putting an end to the occupation,

Accepting the right of the Palestinian people to establish an independent and sovereign State of Palestine in all the territories occupied by Israel in 1967,
Reinstating the pre-1967 "Green Line" as the border between the State of Israel and the State of Palestine (with possible minor exchanges of territories agreed between the parties); the border will be open for the free movement of people and goods, subject to mutual agreement.

Establishing Jerusalem as the capital of the two states, with East Jerusalem (including the Haram al-Sharif) serving as the capital of Palestine and West Jerusalem (including the Western Wall) serving as the capital of Israel. The city is to be united on the physical and municipal level, based on mutual agreement.

Recognizing in principle the Right of Return of the Palestinian refugees, allowing each refugee to choose freely between compensation and repatriation to Palestine and Israel, and fixing by mutual agreement the number of refugees who will be able to return to Israel in annual quotas, without undermining the foundations of Israel.

Safeguarding the security of both Israel and Palestine by mutual agreement and guarantees.

Striving for overall peace between Israel and all Arab countries and the creation of a regional union.

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/about/aims/

 

[cesare]

That's true; but if it were possible, would military invasion of Israel be the right thing to do?

No, I don't think it would be right.

And I don't think it would be right to corner them (and exacerbate their siege mentality) ... in my view they've been between a rock and a hard place since they were handed the poisoned chalice of their own state.

But I do think there's room for the rest of the world to hold up a mirror (without threats) and show them that their behaviour is becoming more and more like that which they have the most cause to fear, loathe and despise.

But it takes courage to do that. The US and UK don't have that. Turkey does, but I suspect that Israel will just face off Turkey if it comes down to it.

 

[frogwoman]

Military invasion of israel certainly wouldn't be right, it'd also be very stupid, but that's not the point.

the point is that with every action like this they do, the less useful the become to imperial powers such as america and china and russia who certainly dont give a fuck, the more suicidal it seems they are becoming and the more likelihood this will eventually be on the table.

 

[frogwoman]

But I do think there's room for the rest of the world to hold up a mirror (without threats) and show them that their behaviour is becoming more and more like that which they have the most cause to fear, loathe and despise.

A lot of zionists know this and dont care. Ive met some.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

the point is that with every action like this they do, the less useful the become to imperial powers such as america and china and russia who certainly dont give a fuck, the more suicidal it seems they are becoming and the more likelihood this will eventually be on the table.

I think I know what this means, but it might be worth pointing out that North Korea is a client state of China.

 

[frogwoman]

North Korea don't go around carpet bombing Tokyo though.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

North Korea don't go around carpet bombing Tokyo though.

They torpedo South Korean subs.

 

[frogwoman]

yes, but their behaviour towards neighbouring countries, while appalling, is not as bad as israel's. you simply can't draw an equivalency between the way north korea treats south korea and japan and the way israel has treated its neighbours. Added to this is the fact that the middle east is a fucking powder keg anyway, and massively strategically important.

 

[Spymaster]

Sorry, just noticed this:

I love the fact that Spy is trying to judge people based on his own cowardly ... position.

So, I'm a coward for suggesting that discretion, in this case, may have been the better part of valour if it avoids preventable killings; while the likes of Fedayn, Tarranau, Butch, that fucking dingo Rioted (whoever he is), and others, cheer-lead this breathtaking lunacy in the Med ........................ from computers in the UK .................. just like me!

On the one hand I put my cards on the table, on the other I'd bet that any of these twats would fold like a pair of two's if they stepped into reality.

Waaaaaaaaaankeeeeeeeeerz!

 

[frogwoman]

I never said it would be immediate btw, but it will eventually (30yrs+) IMO be considered as an option, not out of any love for the palestinians but out of a recognition that israel is an utter liability to the west. Excpect some bullshit to be cooked up about "evil dictators" etc.

Some of us don't actually want this to happen, believe it or not, and want things to be done about it NOW before things get to that stage.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

yes, but their behaviour towards neighbouring countries, while appalling, is not as bad as israel's. you simply can't draw an equivalency between the way north korea treats south korea and japan and the way israel has treated its neighbours. Added to this is the fact that the middle east is a fucking powder keg anyway, and massively strategically important.

That wasn't the point. The point was your suggestion that as Israel acts more like a mad dog, the less desirable they will become to their superpower benefactors.

I was pointing out that a mad dog state/leader like N korea/Il, continues to enjoy China's favor.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

This is Gush shalom's solution


Putting an end to the occupation,

Accepting the right of the Palestinian people to establish an independent and sovereign State of Palestine in all the territories occupied by Israel in 1967,
Reinstating the pre-1967 "Green Line" as the border between the State of Israel and the State of Palestine (with possible minor exchanges of territories agreed between the parties); the border will be open for the free movement of people and goods, subject to mutual agreement.

Establishing Jerusalem as the capital of the two states, with East Jerusalem (including the Haram al-Sharif) serving as the capital of Palestine and West Jerusalem (including the Western Wall) serving as the capital of Israel. The city is to be united on the physical and municipal level, based on mutual agreement.

Recognizing in principle the Right of Return of the Palestinian refugees, allowing each refugee to choose freely between compensation and repatriation to Palestine and Israel, and fixing by mutual agreement the number of refugees who will be able to return to Israel in annual quotas, without undermining the foundations of Israel.

Safeguarding the security of both Israel and Palestine by mutual agreement and guarantees.

Striving for overall peace between Israel and all Arab countries and the creation of a regional union.

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/about/aims/

I think this is pretty much what was discussed at Taba. The Palestinians wouldn't agree to the Israelis annexing settlement blocs (and why should they? they're illegal) and the Israelis refused to give back property they'd robbed from Palestinian refugees.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

My point is that there are a lot of people here prepared to talk the talk when it comes to criticism of Israel. So the question is, are you prepared to walk the walk, or at least, see your countries and their armies walk the walk?

 

[frogwoman]

That wasn't the point. The point was your suggestion that as Israel acts more like a mad dog, the less desirable they will become to their superpower benefactors.

I was pointing out that a mad dog state/leader like N korea/Il, continues to enjoy China's favor.

so fucking what?

there's acting like a mad dog and then there's deliberately doing things to sabotage your (your more powerful ally's) relationships with other states, Now ... as far as i know north korea hasn't killed anyone in the last few years (the kidnappings etc of japanese peopele were done at a time where china was at least as repressive and brutal a regime as North Korea.


What Israel has done to the turkish flotilla would be the equivalent of North Korea going and bombing the shit out of an african factory that china was trying to subsidise, ie in effect sabotage the relationships that china was trying to cultivate with those countries. Other actions Israel has done re Gaza would be the equivalent of taking over a Japanese island and starving the people on it, while at the same time infuriating the rest of the japanese population by making various statements about the war, empire etc and how they were subhuman and deserved it. And all this while China was trying to pursue a rapprochement with Japan.

do you get it now?

 

[Doctor Carrot]

My point is that there are a lot of people here prepared to talk the talk when it comes to criticism of Israel. So the question is, are you prepared to walk the walk, or at least, see your countries and their armies walk the walk?

You can talk the talk and walk the walk, I did so on the previous page, so has Dylans, in fact the walking the walk was done at Taba but Israel refuse to accept they need to make concessions on their illegally held land.

Attacking Israel would be a very, very bad idea. Just like militarily walking the walk was a bad idea against Iraq but doing so against Israel would make Iraq look like a little girl's tea party.

 

[frogwoman]

My point is that there are a lot of people here prepared to talk the talk when it comes to criticism of Israel. So the question is, are you prepared to walk the walk, or at least, see your countries and their armies walk the walk?

Oh, piss off. There are other actions you can take besides military action. I've said before im not in favour of military action against Israel in the fucking slightest.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Attacking Israel would be a very, very bad idea. Just like militarily walking the walk was a bad idea against Iraq but doing so against Israel would make Iraq look like a little girl's tea party.

But it looks like Iraq hadn't actually done anything to justify an invasion. Most of the evidence was made up.

 

[frogwoman]

But it looks like Iraq hadn't actually done anything to justify an invasion. Most of the evidence was made up.

didn't stop you supporting it though, did it

 

[Fedayn]

Sorry, just noticed this:



So, I'm a coward for suggesting that discretion, in this case, may have been the better part of valour, if it avoids preventable killings; while the likes of Fedayn, Tarranau, Butch, that fucking dingo Rioted (whoever he is), and others, cheer-lead this breathtaking lunacy in the Med ........................ from computers in the UK .................. just like me!

On the one hand I put my cards on the table, on the other I'd bet that any of these twats would fold like a pair of two's if they stepped into reality.

Waaaaaaaaaankeeeeeeeeerz!

If you can't see the diference between 'cheerleading' and defending the right of men and women to take self-defence then it's pointless even debating. The breathtaking lunacy was from the Israelis so you didn't even get that right.

 

[cesare]

A lot of zionists know this and dont care. Ive met some.

It's not just zionists though. There's a closing ranks deal going on ...prob 60% of my customers/contacts are jewish (none orthodox) and even though that's a small sample, if you get into proper conversation about what's going on in Middle East they get well uncomfortable but bottom line is support Israel.

And I get that 'brinksmanship' thing that Israel does ... I do it. IMO the US and NATO need to grow some, but that's unlikely cos the US are just interested in the main chance (for them) and NATO prove over and over again that they're toothless and not worth Israel's respect.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

But it looks like Iraq hadn't actually done anything to justify an invasion. Most of the evidence was made up.

Yeah I know that i'm just illustrating the point. There were plenty of people posturing over Iraq's perceived threat and they followed it up with standing armies.