Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

[cesare]

I assume the death toll is at least partly for the reason DC has given: crap equipment. The number of projectiles fired into Israel is much higher.

What would you do if your neighbors took a shot at your house every week with an old flintlock that didn't have a lot of chance of hitting anyone?

Besiege them. Make sure they had little or no aid. White phosporus them etc etc etc

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I'd enlist the help of Uncle Sam from the other neighborhood. Then I'd bulldoze thier house, shoot their kids and drive them from the land their fathers held.

I guess you're correct. One side in this situation is unfailingly moral and right, and the other, unfailingly immoral and wrong.


If the Israelis are the Nazis of the 21st century, should we put together another Allied coalition, and go in there and do what got done to Germany in 1945?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Besiege them. Make sure they had little or no aid. White phosporus them etc etc etc

That's good. You have a kid, don't you? What if some of the shots ended up in the wall of the kid's bedroom?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Besiege them. Make sure they had little or no aid. White phosporus them etc etc etc

Should the Israelis be exterminated for the general good of the world?

Or at the very least, be evicted from the land that they stole?

 

[agricola]

That's good. You have a kid, don't you? What if some of the shots ended up in the wall of the kid's bedroom?

Use them to hang a painting? Decorate the rest of the wall to match?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

For a long time, antisemitism said that jews were bad people who get up to all sorts of bad things.

Then, mid century, they get their own state.

Now, here they are, acting like bad people who get up to all sorts of bad things, apparently.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Use them to hang a painting? Decorate the rest of the wall to match?

Should we invade Israel and put an end to this scourge?

 

[DotCommunist]

pfft, try it Prof Godwin. The Israelis have nukes and a 'never again' mentality. Talking to frogwoman about this she reckons it was forged in the 1880's pogroms and then the Holocaust. What needs to happen is for everyone, everyone, to put the guns down and get round the table. It is doable, we put aside centuries of irish conflict when everyone got too sick of the violence and killings.

 

[DexterTCN]

Who cares? They are self propelled devices with some sort of explosive attached, designed to kill people, and they do.

What are you getting at?

What are you getting at? What's the relevance to the thread...is there an argument that there were rockets on the boats?

Are you now talking about WWII? And Nazis?

If the Israelis are the Nazis of the 21st century, should we put together another Allied coalition, and go in there and do what got done to Germany in 1945?

Well...duh....if anybody were the nazis of the 21st century...should we? Are you going to argue against fighting against fucking nazis now?

 

[spring-peeper]

Should the Israelis be exterminated for the general good of the world?

Or at the very least, be evicted from the land that they stole?

Evicted from the gaza settlements, yes.

I think extermination is a bit over the top.

 

[agricola]

Should we invade Israel and put an end to this scourge?

is this a world of warcraft reference?

 

[cesare]

Should the Israelis be exterminated for the general good of the world?

Or at the very least, be evicted from the land that they stole?

Are you suggesting that the rest of the world use Israeli tactics on the Israelis?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

pfft, try it Prof Godwin. The Israelis have nukes and a 'never again' mentality. Talking to frogwoman about this she reckons it was forged in the 1880's pogroms and then the Holocaust. What needs to happen is for everyone, everyone, to put the guns down and get round the table. It is doable, we put aside centuries of irish conflict when everyone got too sick of the violence and killings.

The situation in Israel and the middle east in general will not be solved until we move onto a new technology after oil. Until then, the politics will always be distorted by the economics.

Once oil is past, the middle east will hold as much interest to the world as East Timor, and those living there will solve their issues as they will.

 

[dylans]

How about Israels own Member Of Parliament who was on the attacked ship , Im sure she is not the only one on the parliament who disagrees with current plan , if she is she is a very brave woman.


People from 32 countries , politicians , reporters , humanitarian war crime lawyers etc etc were to traveling with the flotilla , I really cannot believe that if she was alone in the Israeli parliament in thinking the way she does that she would have took the risk to join never mind speaking out like that.

Yes there are some Israeli's with the courage to stand up against this madness. Many demonstrated in Tel Aviv two nights ago.

Unfortunately a larger number demonstrated outside the Turkish Embassy to support the IDF

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/137801

We shouldn't fool ourselves that opposition is anything but small, isolated and disliked. An Arab member of Parliament was physically attacked in the Knesset today and there are reports of journalists, particularly Arab journalists, being attacked and beaten by Israeli's. Gush Shalom demonstrations are almost always heckled and disrupted by counter demonstrators.

The Israeli public is firmly supporting the government on this and it is foolish to pretend otherwise.

demonstrations by the Israeli left-wing are typically dismissed as unrepresentative within Israeli society. According to a poll commissioned by Haaretz newspaper days ago, 53 per cent of Israelis believe that the air force should continue its assaults on Gaza, and only 19 per cent thought the government should negotiate a ceasefire as soon as possible.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/200913202712466579.html

 

[cesare]

pfft, try it Prof Godwin. The Israelis have nukes and a 'never again' mentality. Talking to frogwoman about this she reckons it was forged in the 1880's pogroms and then the Holocaust. What needs to happen is for everyone, everyone, to put the guns down and get round the table. It is doable, we put aside centuries of irish conflict when everyone got too sick of the violence and killings.

Aye. But that would need the US to adopt a sensible foreign policy - unlikely.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Are you suggesting that the rest of the world use Israeli tactics on the Israelis?

No. I'm asking you if that's the answer to a scourge upon the earth.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Evicted from the gaza settlements, yes.

.

Why stop there? They stole the land.

 

[cesare]

That's good. You have a kid, don't you? What if some of the shots ended up in the wall of the kid's bedroom?

No. I don't have a kid. Thanks for that.

But in any event, you asked what I would do and I described the Israeli tactics. Surely you should be applauding my description.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

They stole the land, and they are apparently trying to kill the residents of Gaza by depriving them of food etc, via a blockade. That would be genocide.

So the question is, does this situation call for a military response to prevent genocide, like we should have done in Rwanda?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

you asked what I would do .

You haven't answered.

 

[cesare]

No. I'm asking you if that's the answer to a scourge upon the earth.

It's a dumb question - because I don't consider Israel to be a 'scourge upon the earth'.

 

[cesare]

You haven't answered.

Yes, I did.

 

[DotCommunist]

Janet and John analogy time. Janet is menacing John with a knife, while he has his fists up. Someone calm down John and someone else get Janet to throw down the knife and talk.

Fuck you blair, I just sorted out the middle east

e2a

John has had a savage beating daily for the last 20 years and has snapped so may need some talking down of epic proportions.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

that kind of analogy is useless tho dotty as its predicated on some degree of equality between the participants.

this is more like godzilla fucking sooty up the shitter.

or something.....

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

. What needs to happen is for everyone, everyone, to put the guns down and get round the table. .

To what end, though? Israel has been at the table numerous times at US brokered attempts like Camp David. Apparently, Israel has broken all of these peace treaties.

Israel is constantly being censured by the UN, but it consistently ignores it. Israel is apparently in contravention of UN resolutions etc, has been for years, according to what I read here, yet nothing is done.

The argument seems to be that Israel thumbs its nose at international law, consistently breaks peace treaties, and continues on its path of oppression and possibly genocide.

I'm asking the people here who have sounded the warning about Israel: in the face of all this, what should be done?

 

[Doctor Carrot]

They stole the land, and they are apparently trying to kill the residents of Gaza by depriving them of food etc, via a blockade. That would be genocide.

So the question is, does this situation call for a military response to prevent genocide, like we should have done in Rwanda?

Yeah it could be called genocide but your question about military action is irrelevant, given the fact that Israel is pretty much entirely funded and armed by the most powerful nation on earth.

When Palestinians do it it's terrorism, when Israel do it it's counter terrorism. It's text book imperialism, the people the imperialists are oppressing are backwards who need help, the people doing the oppressing are the good guys and any killing is an unfortunate blunder. Morality doesn't even enter into it.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Yeah it could be called genocide but your question about military action is irrelevant, given the fact that Israel is pretty much entirely funded and armed by the most powerful nation on earth..

That's true; but if it were possible, would military invasion of Israel be the right thing to do?

 

[Doctor Carrot]

To what end, though? Israel has been at the table numerous times at US brokered attempts like Camp David. Apparently, Israel has broken all of these peace treaties.

Israel is constantly being censured by the UN, but it consistently ignores it. Israel is apparently in contravention of UN resolutions etc, has been for years, according to what I read here, yet nothing is done.

The argument seems to be that Israel thumbs its nose at international law, consistently breaks peace treaties, and continues on its path of oppression and possibly genocide.

I'm asking the people here who have sounded the warning about Israel: in the face of all this, what should be done?

What you say isn't 'according to people on here' it's documented fact that you could easily google and find yourself.

What should be done? Israel should simply sign up to what pretty much the entire world supports, including Hamas, which is two states with Israel withdrawn back to the borders it had in the 1960s. The only thing that will change it is when America orders it to do so but they won't because Israel is America's imperial client which holds the whip over the middle east region.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

That's true; but if it were possible, would military invasion of Israel be the right thing to do?

By who?

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

usual mealy mouthed bollocks from US representative on newsnight just now.