Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

[Spymaster]

first hand sources are generally considered preferable to second hand speculation from fearless questioners with blatant ideological bias.

Well the weight of eyewitness evidence is quite clearly going to be against the Israelis, given that there are absolutely no independent witnesses.

 

[magneze]

However, if a nation does break the law and shoves a gun in your ribs, you're back in the same situation as the thief. Do you do as asked, or not?

What's to say that the aid workers woken from sleep even knew that it was the Israeli army that were suddenly on their boat?

 

[Hulot]

However, if a nation does break the law and shoves a gun in your ribs, you're back in the same situation as the thief. Do you do as asked, or not?

The point is: even if you make what turns out in hindsight to be the wrong call, having been put in that situation you're not to blame either way.

 

[DotCommunist]

What's to say that the aid workers woken from sleep even knew that it was the Israeli army that were suddenly on their boat?

I think they could have made a reasonable guess and then taken the reasonable conclusion that when the IDF come in firing they intend to kill and this is a fight-for-your-life moment.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Plenty of people don't.

And that is a choice.

 

[two sheds]

The reality is that there are people in the world who are not like the way we are. There are people who believe in ideas and causes to the degree that they will die for them. It's possible that some of such people might have been on that ship, and that they had come to terms with the fact that they might be facing death, and they chose to proceed.

Ahhhhh the ships were full of suicide bombers were they.

 

[DotCommunist]

neat dehumanisation too 'there are some men you cannot reason with. Some men just want to watch the world burn'

pull the other one

 

[cesare]

And that is a choice.

Hobson's choice for some. Fight or flight.

 

[tangentlama]

How on earth do you 'court such confrontation' from the deck of a ship in the dark at 4am? Were they holding up 'please land here' placards to the helicopters?

The Israelis knew that there were sleeping deck passengers in advance. The first video I link to shows this clearly.

When the Israelis opened fire on the ship prior to storming, some of those people sleeping on deck may well have been killed or injured fatally by the actions of the Israelis.

This was a murderous action - firing upon a vulnerable ferry deck where people were known to be sleeping in their sleeping bags - this was a murderous action.

My guess is that some very bad injuries or even fatalities had already happened before the commandos tried to land on the deck, as a result of the initial fire from the Israelis.

The sleeping passengers on the deck were very vulnerable. Everyone knew they were there, even the Israelis. There is no justification for the route taken by the Israelis in international waters.

19 people have now lost their lives. This is an absolute tragedy. It cannot be justified.

 

[quimcunx]

This on youtube.



by this woman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caoimhe_Butterly

 

[tangentlama]

Ahhhhh the ships were full of suicide bombers were they.

Watch the first of the two videos below. It shows you how the deck was being used for sleeping. There were sleeping people, in their sleeping bags when the Israelis began firing upon the vessel, prior to their attempts to board.

Everyone in the Israeli military knew there were people sleeping in sleeping-bags on deck of the Mavi Mamara aid-vessel.

On board Gaza's Freedom Flotilla: This video from Al Jazeera shows the nature and intent of those travelling to Gaza to bring much needed assistance. It shows the people sleeping in sleeping bags on the deck of the largest aid-ship, the Turkish ferry Mavi Mamara. You will get some idea of the vulnerable situation of those aid-workers on the deck as the Israelis began to storm the aid-vessel.

This video below is from Al Jazeera and shows the Israeli video of some of the boarding and the response. You can hear how the Israelis accuse the flotilla of supporting Hamas terror, of being violent and intending violence from the outset. The flotilla is also accused of being armed with intent to provoke violence. Turkey says there were no weapons on board at all and that Israel is lying about the presence of arms on the Turkish ship.

 

[Knotted]

Eye witness accounts from passengers beginning to trickle in.

 

[Fedayn]

BBC reporter there talking about more details coming out, and I quote "It's not looking good for Israel" and this is after showing the footage of the helpless commandos getting an kicking.

 

[tangentlama]

BBC reporter there talking about more details coming out, and I quote "It's not looking good for Israel" and this is after showing the footage of the helpless commandos getting an kicking.

... after showing the heavily edited footage taken by Israeli Defence Force of its commandos landing on the largest boat ...

 

[Spymaster]

Watch the first of the two videos. It shows you how the deck was being used for sleeping. There were sleeping people, in their sleeping bags when the Israelis began firing upon the vessel, prior to their attempts to board.

If they fired live rounds onto the deck prior to boarding then you'd be right.

Just watched the vids you posted, btw. On the second an Israeli spokesman gives quite a reasonable defence of the legality of the raid which, if correct, has a bearing on what happened.

He asserts that a country operating a naval blockade can board a vessel in international waters if the vessel is intending to break the blockade, under international law.

So whilst the morality of the boarding (and the blockade itself) may be dubious, the legality may not be so.

 

[audiotech]

From the programme Inside Story: A look into the aid flotilla attack by Israel, that's been posted on this thread the Turkish authorities have said that they searched the ship and everyone on board before they were allowed to set sail?

 

[strung out]

If they fired live rounds onto the deck prior to boarding then you'd be right.

Just watched the vids you posted, btw. On the second an Israeli spokesman gives quite a reasonable defence of the legality of the raid which, if correct, has a bearing on what happened.

He asserts that a country operating a naval blockade can board a vessel in international waters if the vessel is intending to break the blockade, under international law.

So whilst the morality of the boarding (and the blockade itself) may be dubious, the legality may not be so.

only if the blockade is legal. which it isn't

 

[Dandred]

And that is a choice.

You really are one of the most vile people on this site.

 

[DotCommunist]

if the blockade is legal, which this one isn't

 

[audiotech]

Not all Israeli's support occupation and war.

 

[Fedayn]

... after showing the heavily edited footage taken by Israeli Defence Force of its commandos landing on the largest boat ...

Aye, even after heavily edited footage, the BBC are accepting it's still looking bad for Israel. Says something pretty 'new' imho.

 

[Blagsta]

If they fired live rounds onto the deck prior to boarding then you'd be right.

Just watched the vids you posted, btw. On the second an Israeli spokesman gives quite a reasonable defence of the legality of the raid which, if correct, has a bearing on what happened.

He asserts that a country operating a naval blockade can board a vessel in international waters if the vessel is intending to break the blockade, under international law.

So whilst the morality of the boarding (and the blockade itself) may be dubious, the legality may not be so.

Israel's blockade is illegal.

 

[cesare]

If they fired live rounds onto the deck prior to boarding then you'd be right.

Just watched the vids you posted, btw. On the second an Israeli spokesman gives quite a reasonable defence of the legality of the raid which, if correct, has a bearing on what happened.

He asserts that a country operating a naval blockade can board a vessel in international waters if the vessel is intending to break the blockade, under international law.

So whilst the morality of the boarding (and the blockade itself) may be dubious, the legality may not be so.

Have you not been reading agricola's links to the applicable law?

 

[1%er]

On the radio (LBC) they have just interviewed an Irish guy who is on a boat just off the Libyan coast, he said they have contacted the Irish Government and have been told their actions are legal. They intend to continue on their way to try and deliver the 500 tons of cement they have.

They say there are 5 Irish people and 6 Malaysian people including a M.P. on the boat (I don't hear if the MP is Irish or Malaysian).

So it looks like another boat or two will be turning up soon, it will be interesting to see what the Israeli respond will be this time.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You really are one of the most vile people on this site.

Friend, you've been saying that to me for years, on whatever thread, basically about whatever the post. So with you, I go with the maxim, 'consider the source'.

 

[DotCommunist]

Well the weight of eyewitness evidence is quite clearly going to be against the Israelis, given that there are absolutely no independent witnesses.

I take it the camera was an anti-semite machine determined to smear the innocent IDF commandos. 'Ware the ideological bias of a Sony camera

 

[elbows]

BBC coverage slightly more critical of Israel now, reflecting eyewitnesses & what UN head has said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10208027.stm

Eyewitness accounts from ships raided by Israeli commandos have cast doubt on Israel's version of events that led to the deaths of at least 10 people.

Further criticism of Israel came from UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon on Tuesday.

In an interview with the AFP news agency he said Israel's blockade of Gaza was responsible for the deadly raid.

"Had Israelis heeded to my call and to the call of the international community by lifting the blockade of Gaza, this tragic incident would not have happened," he said.

Nato Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen called on Israel to release people and boats it had seized.

He spoke after an emergency meeting of Nato ambassadors in Brussels called by Turkey.

A side panel helpfully mentions a few things about the legal situation.

The UN Charter on the Law of the Sea says only if a vessel is suspected to be transporting weapons, or weapons of mass destruction, can it be boarded in international waters. Otherwise the permission of the ship's flag carrying nation must be sought.
The charter allows for naval blockades, but the effect of the blockade on civilians must be proportionate to the effect on the military element for the blockade to be legally enforceable.

 

[dylans]

Strange that the Israelis are so keen to stop anyone from speaking and confiscating cameras etc. If their brave commando's were really under vicious attack by Al Qaeda poets and artists I would have thought they would be eager to show us the evidence

 

[magneze]

I think they could have made a reasonable guess and then taken the reasonable conclusion that when the IDF come in firing they intend to kill and this is a fight-for-your-life moment.

My point is that they probably aren't thinking "who is this?", more "WTF, we're being attacked, we have to defend ourselves".

 

[cesare]

Strange that the Israelis are so keen to stop anyone from speaking and confiscating cameras etc. If their brave commando's were really under vicious attack by Al Qaeda poets and artists I would have thought they would be eager to show us the evidence

Aye.