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Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

I'm just prepared to consider the possibility that there were elements on the ship who, under the guise of "Aid Workers", were simply trouble makers who were more than happy to attack Israeli's (maybe only there to do so)
Fantasy. So these mythical troublemakers went on a convoy that had no intention of seeing an Israeli face to face and given the experience of past convoys, had no chance of doing so, especially in the unprecedented manner in which it happened?

They were perfectly correct to defend their vessel from armed boarders.
 
If an international aid flotilla was attacked in international waters and boarded by armed North Korean forces who killed and injured several on board, you'd be cheering the brave unarmed men who tried to repel the attack. As would I.

If an aid flotilla sailed toward Inchon in the face of repeated warnings from the North Koreans not to do it or face the consequences, I would ponder the motivations of the flotilla in proceeding, just as I am here.

I was thinking about this. It doesn't seem all that surprising or shocking an idea that the people on the ships had thought about the prospect of violence occurring at the hands of the IDF, and that they were prepared to accept that possibility.

This idea has been met with outrage and disbelief here. I think the problem arises from our current societal viewpoint on things like this, that we were actually discussing in a different thread a few days ago. We live in a time where personal wellbeing is seen as the paramount goal. Many people would not put their lives on the line in furtherance or defence of a cause or belief, because this would contradict that paramount objective of serving the self.

When we see others putting themselves in harm's way ostensibly for ideals, like soldiers etc, we dismiss is at mental instability, economic greed, etc. It has become difficult if not impossible for us to accept that some people are willing to give up their lives for a cause. It's one of the reasons that islamic fundamentalism is so frightening to us. It worries us that there is a potential foe who is prepared to go farther than we are, in promoting their cause, because often those who are most committed, win in the end.

The reality is that there are people in the world who are not like the way we are. There are people who believe in ideas and causes to the degree that they will die for them. It's possible that some of such people might have been on that ship, and that they had come to terms with the fact that they might be facing death, and they chose to proceed.
 
Where were their guns and bombs to take on the soldiers?

I mean if it was me planning on an action like that, I'd give myself a fighting chance from the outset.

Weapons_on_Marmaris.jpg


Enough weapons to take down at least a hundred commandos, surely.
 
If an aid flotilla sailed toward Inchon in the face of repeated warnings from the North Koreans not to do it or face the consequences, I would ponder the motivations of the flotilla in proceeding, just as I am here.

I was thinking about this. It doesn't seem all that surprising or shocking an idea that the people on the ships had thought about the prospect of violence occurring at the hands of the IDF, and that they were prepared to accept that possibility.

This idea has been met with outrage and disbelief here. I think the problem arises from our current societal viewpoint on things like this, that we were actually discussing in a different thread a few days ago. We live in a time where personal wellbeing is seen as the paramount goal. Many people would not put their lives on the line in furtherance or defence of a cause or belief, because this would contradict that paramount objective of serving the self.

When we see others putting themselves in harm's way ostensibly for ideals, like soldiers etc, we dismiss is at mental instability, economic greed, etc. It has become difficult if not impossible for us to accept that some people are willing to give up their lives for a cause. It's one of the reasons that islamic fundamentalism is so frightening to us. It worries us that there is a potential foe who is prepared to go farther than we are, in promoting their cause, because often those who are most committed, win in the end.

The reality is that there are people in the world who are not like the way we are. There are people who believe in ideas and causes to the degree that they will die for them. It's possible that some of such people might have been on that ship, and that they had come to terms with the fact that they might be facing death, and they chose to proceed.

You're really willing to outline a whole sociological theory in order to avoid the facts that have been laid out thus far (and which really don't support the Israeli line in any way whatsoever)? Now that's devotion to a cause.
 
Weapons_on_Marmaris.jpg


Enough weapons to take down at least a hundred commandos, surely.

Indeed. Or to open a big kitchen (one required for, say, a boat carrying 500+ passengers)!

ps: I also like the spanners and wrench which have been added to the pile on the right. A wrench! On a boat! Terrorist scum etc.
 
I'm just prepared to consider the possibility that there were elements on the ship who, under the guise of "Aid Workers", were simply trouble makers who were more than happy to attack Israeli's (maybe only there to do so), relished the opportunity when they saw the troops swinging down the ropes, and set about them with iron bars, knives and chairs thus eliciting a lethal response.

You sound like a policeman. They couldn't have been real hippies or they wouldn't have put up any resistance to the kicking we were giving them.
 
Fantasy. So these mythical troublemakers went on a convoy that had no intention of seeing an Israeli face to face and given the experience of past convoys, had no chance of doing so .....

There was every chance of confrontation and yes, I believe that there's a distinct possibility that some on board would have courted such confrontation.

They were perfectly correct to defend their vessel from armed boarders

At least 10 people (would) say you're wrong on that one.

The 'defence' initiative achieved absolutely nothing but bodybags.
 
If an aid flotilla sailed toward Inchon in the face of repeated warnings from the North Koreans not to do it or face the consequences, I would ponder the motivations of the flotilla in proceeding, just as I am here.
Would you have said the same about the ships full of jewish refugees breaking the British blockade of Palestine in 1947?
 
Indeed. Or to open a big kitchen (one required for, say, a boat carrying 500+ passengers)!

ps: I also like the spanners and wrench which have been added to the pile on the right. A wrench! On a boat! Terrorist scum etc.
And the grinding wheels. They're lethal for as long as your enemy will stay within the length of the flex
 
The footage on Democracy Now, being shown to the Israeli public, by the Israeli state, shows an IDF commando being thrown over the side of the ship and others beaten with metal bars. Whether the IDF shot first is unclear? Let's not forget though that the Israeli state has sent foreign nationals to kill people in hotel rooms in other countries and shoots and bombs civilians, including children, with impunity. The Israeli state is not unique in that respect, but it's worth considering that if any other state had committed such an act as this, then they would be condemned outright and the defenders hailed as heroes. It's worth noting too that there is a complete news blackout coming from Israel (apart from what the state wants to be shown) and journalists, some reportedly beaten, had film confiscated when they were leaving the Turkish ship that was boarded by the IDF commandos. It appears to have been a carefully calculated act on the part of the Israeli state, to send a clear message to anyone wanting to circumvent their strict controls on Gaza and the Palestinian people?
 
I'm just prepared to consider the possibility that there were elements on the ship who, under the guise of "Aid Workers", were simply trouble makers who were more than happy to attack Israeli's (maybe only there to do so), relished the opportunity when they saw the troops swinging down the ropes, and set about them with iron bars, knives and chairs thus eliciting a lethal response.

I'm going to take the word of those who were actually there, that the commandos shot first and without questions. Rather than the dubious 'question raisers' on the internet who just so happen to be right wingers.
 
yes but you are also saying that it's then your fault he shot you

It's not that simplistic.

If a thief sticks a gun in your ribs and asks for your money, you have two choices.

If you don't give up the money and he shoots you, it's arguable that that could have been avoided, had you done as asked. So in a limited sense, your choice played a role in the consequence of the trigger being pulled.

But the overriding situation was, is, and remains illegal. The thief has no color of right allowing him to do what he is doing, and your resistance to his act may have led to your death, but your resistance does not somehow convert his shooting you into a legal or justified act.

This applies in so many areas. If you leave your car unlocked with a laptop sitting on the seat, you are a damn fool, and no one will be very surprised when it is stolen. But your leaving the door unlocked does not change the essential nature of what the thief does, which is to commit the crime of theft.
 
Guardian reporting that the Israel'ss have suggested they sabotage some boats before they set sail. A couple had steering problems and had to return to port.
 
There was every chance of confrontation and yes, I believe that there's a distinct possibility that some on board would have courted such confrontation.



At least 10 people (would) say you're wrong on that one.

The 'defence' initiative achieved absolutely nothing but bodybags.

International outrage, emergency meeting of UN Ambassadors and (reportedly) egyptian opening of borders.

Of course, they clearly didn't set out for this to happen but they know what the IDF are like, so when they came in firing they feared for thier lives.
 
There was every chance of confrontation and yes, I believe that there's a distinct possibility that some on board would have courted such confrontation.



At least 10 people (would) say you're wrong on that one.

The 'defence' initiative achieved absolutely nothing but bodybags.
Spymaster, do you believe the actions of the Israelis was justified and proportionate to the threat they faced, bearing in mind they have had a couple of weeks to think of the best course of action to take?
 
Spymaster, do you believe the actions of the Israelis was justified and proportionate to the threat they faced, bearing in mind they have had a couple of weeks to think of the best course of action to take?

Absolutely not, if you're referring to the "threat" to Israel from the convoy itself.

I can't speak for the "threat" faced by individual soldiers once on board.
 
I'm going to take the word of those who were actually there, that the commandos shot first and without questions. Rather than the dubious 'question raisers' on the internet who just so happen to be right wingers.

But it's possible that either group might be biased. Why accept the word of either without more?
 
There was every chance of confrontation and yes, I believe that there's a distinct possibility that some on board would have courted such confrontation.
How on earth do you 'court such confrontation' from the deck of a ship in the dark at 4am? Were they holding up 'please land here' placards to the helicopters?



At least 10 people (would) say you're wrong on that one.
You haven't the first clue what they would think. Presumably a number of them are those that resisted the armed boarders.
 
first hand sources are generally considered preferable to second hand speculation from fearless questioners with blatant ideological bias.
 
Indeed. Or to open a big kitchen (one required for, say, a boat carrying 500+ passengers)!

ps: I also like the spanners and wrench which have been added to the pile on the right. A wrench! On a boat! Terrorist scum etc.
They've got CDs! Take cover! :eek:
 
On board Gaza's Freedom Flotilla: This video from Al Jazeera shows the nature and intent of those travelling to Gaza to bring much needed assistance. It shows the people sleeping in sleeping bags on the deck of the largest aid-ship, the Turkish ferry Mavi Mamara. You will get some idea of the vulnerable situation of those aid-workers on the deck as the Israelis began to storm the aid-vessel.

This video below is from Al Jazeera and shows the Israeli video of some of the boarding and the response. You can hear how the Israelis accuse the flotilla of supporting Hamas terror, of being violent and intending violence from the outset. The flotilla is also accused of being armed with intent to provoke violence. Turkey says there were no weapons on board at all and that Israel is lying about the presence of arms on the Turkish ship.
 
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