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Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

Pickman's model said:
cos there's quite a difference between the cheap stuff shuffled off on kids in chocolate money and the good stuff, you know.
Click to expand...

We will know if Regev reads these boards soon, then - he will be claiming they are all on that posh Tesco stuff, and are using the wrappers to build suicide vests.
 
Israeli ambassador to Ireland: soldiers were violently attacked/soldiers were defending themselves (Sky News)

Defending themselves with an act of piracy in international waters. Fuck off.
 
Text of a planned speech by Uri Avnery that was meant to be read at an anti war rally in 2009 but never given because the planned anti war march was attacked by right wing gangs. It is just as relevant today

They tell us
We are traitors.
They tell us
We are destroyers of Israel.
They tell us
We are criminals.

But we tell them:
The criminals are those
Who started this
Criminal and unnecessary war!

An unnecessary war
Because it was possible
To stop the Qassams
By the government
stopping the blockade
On the million and a half
Inhabitants of Gaza.

A criminal war
Because, on top of everything else
It is openly and shamelessly
Part of Ehud Barak’s and Tzipi Livni’s
Election campaign

I accuse Ehud Barak
Of exploiting the IDF soldiers
In order to get more Knesset seats.

I accuse Tzipi Livni
Of advocating mutual slaughter
In order to become
Prime Minister.

I accuse Ehud Olmert
Of trying to cover up
Rot and corruption
With a disastrous war.

I call upon them
From this tribune,
On behalf of this
Courageous and decent audience:
Stop the war at once!
Stop shedding the blood of
Our soldiers and civilians for nothing!
Stop shedding the blood
Of the inhabitants of Gaza!

The ground invasion
Will cause
An additional disaster,
A mutual massacre
And even more
Terrible war crimes!

At the end of this war
No general
Will be able to set foot
On European soil
Without fear of being arrested
For war crimes.
We are told
That there is no alternative.
Not true!!!
A cease-fire is possible even now,
Yes, this very minute,
If we agree to lift
The murderous siege,
If we allow the Gaza people
To live in dignity,
If we talk with Hamas.

I wish to address
The people of the South,
The people of Sderot,
Ashdod and Beersheba:
We know your anguish –
Even though we don’t live with you,
We know well.
But we also know
That this war
Will not change your situation.
The politicians exploit you,
The politicians conduct a war
On your back.
You too know that!

I call upon
Olmert, Barak and Livni:
Do not send the soldiers into the Strip!
All three of you will be accused of war crimes!
All three of you will pay the price!

The masses in Israel
Saluting you now
Will punish you tomorrow.
That happened in the
Second Lebanon War
That will happen
Again this time!

And YOU who are standing here,
Women and men,
Young and old,
Jews and Arabs,
YOU who have protested
Against this horrible war
From the first day,
From the first minute,
Isolated and cursed –
YOU are the real heroes!

You can be proud,
Very proud,
Because you stand in the middle
Of a hurricane of hysteria and ignorance,
And are not swept away by it!
You are retaining your sanity,
Not only at home
But here, in the street!

Millions around the world see you,
Salute you,
Salute each one of you.

As a human being,
As an Israeli,
As a seeker of peace,
I am proud
To be here today.
 
agricola said:
I doubt that for at least part of the "raid" - you would think anyone with that level of training would not have let troops abseil, one-by-one, into a very angry and fully awake mob (which is what happens in the clip currently on the BBC).
Click to expand...

Looking at that again, I think you have a very good point here, one can't help thinking that those Israeli commandos are shockingly incompetent.

Abseiling into the middle of an entirely predictable angry mob, very nearly getting their arses kicked due to weight of numbers, allegedly losing at least one weapon, then panicking and shooting the place up.

Pretty crap commandos ...
 
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/ ex-Ambassador on the legal side of things.

A word on the legal position, which is very plain. To attack a foreign flagged vessel in international waters is illegal. It is not piracy, as the Israeli vessels carried a military commission. It is rather an act of illegal warfare.

Because the incident took place on the high seas does not mean however that international law is the only applicable law. The Law of the Sea is quite plain that, when an incident takes place
on a ship on the high seas (outside anybody's territorial waters) the applicable law is that of the flag state of the ship on which the incident occurred. In legal terms, the Turkish ship was Turkish territory.

There are therefore two clear legal possibilities.

Possibility one is that the Israeli commandos were acting on behalf of the government of Israel in killing the activists on the ships. In that case Israel is in a position of war with Turkey, and the act falls under international jurisdiction as a war crime.

Possibility two is that, if the killings were not authorised Israeli military action, they were acts of murder under Turkish jurisdiction. If Israel does not consider itself in a position of war with Turkey, then it must hand over the commandos involved for trial in Turkey under Turkish law.
Click to expand...
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Looking at that again, I think you have a very good point here, one can't help thinking that those Israeli commandos are shockingly incompetent.

Abseiling into the middle of an entirely predictable angry mob, very nearly getting their arses kicked due to weight of numbers, allegedly losing at least one weapon, then panicking and shooting the place up.

Pretty crap commandos ...
Click to expand...

I reckon that's just how things happen. We're all used to Hollywood action movies where these operations are flawlessly choreographed for us. The reality of slipping down a rope from a helicopter onto a moving ship full of hostile people is always going to be messy, unless you're Arnie.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Looking at that again, I think you have a very good point here, one can't help thinking that those Israeli commandos are shockingly incompetent.

Abseiling into the middle of an entirely predictable angry mob, very nearly getting their arses kicked due to weight of numbers, allegedly losing at least one weapon, then panicking and shooting the place up.

Pretty crap commandos ...
Click to expand...


I was about to post something exactly along these lines, Israel screwed up, big time. The raid looked unprofessional and the sheer number of casualties suggests a total lack of fire discipline as well as, as you mention, losing weapons (the reports I read said at least two handguns and there was a report that an automatic rifle was lost as well).

The raid was clearly illegal and utterly immoral anyway, but to go in with live ammuntion defies belief, haven't they heard of rubber bullets and tear-gas? And what type of rules of engagement were they operating under to open fire indiscriminately on civilians with improvised hand-held weapons?

This is such a massive cock-up; they could have got away with it diplomatically and politically if there were no casualties, western governments would have given mild criticism for boarding ships in international waters and left it at that, but at least 10, up 20 dead? This isn't something that can be ignored. It's like the use of forged passports in the Dubai assassination, western governments probably wouldn't have minded the assassination on its own but with the forging of passports they kicked up a massive storm and seriously pissed off the rest of the world.

Even for the people who support Israel, surely this level of sheer incompetence and cack-handedness is worrying. And it makes me wonder who is making these decisions and why, Israel might be used to having enemies but they seem to be going out of their way to make even more at the moment.

And all that said, sincere condolences to the families and friends of those that were murdered and a speedy recovery to the injured, I hope the next convoy has more luck.
 
Pickman's model said:
she's a loon :eek:
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The odd part about that article is that - buried as it is below the usual Phillips rubbish - even she appears to concede that the tactics used were absolutely shit, albeit she doesnt take it to its logical conclusion of questioning whether the raid (and its timing, the location and in terms of the tactics used) was justified.

Everything bad that happened on the raid was as the direct consequence of the tactics used by the Israelis.
 
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