Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

[dylans]

You seem to be painting yourself into a corner here.
It has been pointed out several times that demos against the action HAVE been called & you seem to keep missing that.

I don't think you're trying to paint ALL Israelis as "BADDIES", are you ?

I don't think they are all BADDIES at all. Unfortunately however there has been a considerable move to the right over the past ten years or so. In fact i think it can be traced to the death of Rabin and the dream that died with him. There was a time when the likes of Netanyahuh were a joke and it was Israelis who threw Sharon out of office.

However for a number of reasons, not the least being the death of secular Palestininian politics and the rise of Islamisism, Israeli's have retreated into siege mentality and that is reflected by the election of real bastards like Sharon and now Netanyahuh. It's not condemning the population to recognise that there has been a shift to the right and to an acceptance of confrontational policies amongst the Israeli public as a whole. The left is isolated and demoralised and the right have free reign to carry out the kind of atrocities we are witnessing

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't have the answers and I'm not an Israeli but if I were i would hope that blatant examples of brutality like this can be the catalyst for a movement to end the siege of Gaza.

I really hope I am wrong and there are demonstrations against this. Israelis have done it in the past.

there are israelis rioting about this as we type.

 

[danny la rouge]

I don't think they are all BADDIES at all.

OK, so you need to use language that demonstrates this.

 

[Pickman's model]

OK, so you need to use language that demonstrates this.

you may be asking too much.

 

[frogwoman]

I don't think they are all BADDIES at all. Unfortunately however there has been a considerable move to the right over the past ten years or so. In fact i think it can be traced to the death of Rabin and the dream that died with him. There was a time when the likes of Netanyahuh were a joke and it was Israelis who threw Sharon out of office.

However for a number of reasons, not the least being the death of secular Palestininian politics and the rise of Islamisism, Israeli's have retreated into siege mentality and that is reflected by the election of real bastards like Sharon and now Netanyahuh. It's not condemning the population to recognise that there has been a shift to the right and to an acceptance of confrontational policies amongst the Israeli public as a whole. The left is isolated and demoralised and the right have free reign to carry out the kind of atrocities we are witnessing

There's been a shift to the right in british politics too.

 

[little_legs]

No I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about the holocaust. Before the holocaust, there were 77 synagogues working here, now there are only 2. The woman i spoke to at the synagogue i went to on saturday said that while there are many jewish people in the city, the majority are non-practicing - there are actually only 3 children who attend religious services on any kind of regular basis.

still, i think you are referring to the wiping of the jewish communities that took place in 1903 and 1905. lots of moldovan cities had jewish communities, with the biggest one in kishinev (and you have pointed this out earlier), but the killings were authorised by the russian tzar nikolai ii because he wanted to get rid of bessarabia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi%C5%9Fin%C4%83u

Pogrom and pre-revolution
In the late 19th century, especially due to growing anti-Semitic sentiment in the Russian Empire and better economic conditions, many Jews chose to settle in Chişinău. By the year 1900, 43% of the population of Chişinău was Jewish – one of the highest numbers in Europe.

A large anti-Semitic riot took place in the town on 6–7 April 1903, which would later be known as the Kishinev pogrom. The rioting continued for three days, resulting in 47–49 Jews dead, 92 severely wounded, and 500 suffering minor injuries. In addition, several hundred houses and many businesses were plundered and destroyed. The pogroms are largely believed to have been incited by anti-Jewish propaganda in the only official newspaper of the time, Bessarabetz (Бессарабецъ). The reactions to this incident included a petition to Tsar Nicholas II of Russia on behalf of the American people by the US President Theodore Roosevelt in July 1905.[7]

On 22 August 1905 another violent event occurred, whereby the police opened fire on an estimated 3,000 demonstrating agricultural workers. Only a few months later, 19–20 October 1905, a further protest occurred, helping to force the hand of Nicholas II in bringing about the October Manifesto. However, these demonstrations suddenly turned into another anti-Jewish pogrom, resulting in 19 deaths.[7]

 

[dylans]

you may be asking too much.

My position is clear. If Israeli's don't want the reputation of their country to be dragged through the mud its time they stood up and said so.

 

[Pickman's model]

My position is clear. If Israeli's don't want the reputation of their country to be dragged through the mud its time they stood up and said so.

it's a bit late for that now, isn't it.

 

[Pickman's model]

 

[Pickman's model]

 

[Maidmarian]

OK, so you need to use language that demonstrates this.

Indeed.

There's been a shift to the right in british politics too.

Absolutely.

 

[frogwoman]

still, i think you are referring to the wiping of the jew communities that took place in 1903 and 1905. lots of moldovan cities had jewish communities, with the biggest one in kishinev (and you have pointed this out earlier), but the killings were authorised by the russian tzar nikolai ii because he wanted to get rid of bessarabia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi%C5%9Fin%C4%83u

Im not, Im talking about the holocaust. Those pogroms, as bad as the were, didn't completely empty the city of practicing jews and give the survivors a complete fear of practcing judaism, to the extent that now the majority of jews in chisinau (and there are still quite a lot btw) have almost no knowlegdge of it at all. But never mind. There was and is a lot of anti-semitism here.

 

[Pickman's model]

still, i think you are referring to the wiping of the jewish communities that took place in 1903 and 1905. lots of moldovan cities had jewish communities, with the biggest one in kishinev (and you have pointed this out earlier), but the killings were authorised by the russian tzar nikolai ii because he wanted to get rid of bessarabia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi%C5%9Fin%C4%83u

where does that link say nicholas ii wanted to get rid of bessarabia?

 

[dylans]

it's a bit late for that now, isn't it.

It's never too late to stand up and say enough. Netanyahuh is a fucking disaster for Israel and the region. He has no interest in peace. He never did. If Israeli's are, (and fwiw I think they do want peace) they have to fight for it.

The first step is to throw that bastard out of office

 

[Pickman's model]

so they have to fight for peace? that doesn't sound logical to me, surely peace is the absence of fighting, the absence of conflict?

 

[selamlar]

Not entirely sure if this is true, and certainly can't find any referance to it in the local press here, but this may well put the cat properly amongst the pigeons (my emphasis added)

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/turkey-threatens-action-israel-on-alert/116743-2.html

Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy,a development with unpredictable consequences.

from

 

[frogwoman]

Btw, take a look at the demographics of who lives in towns like Sderot. Hint: It isn't rich american settlers.

 

[Pickman's model]

Not entirely sure if this is true, and certainly can't find any referance to it in the local press here, but this may well put the cat properly amongst the pigeons (my emphasis added)

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/turkey-threatens-action-israel-on-alert/116743-2.html




from

woo hoo

then we'd see things start to happen

 

[frogwoman]

FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!



...oh.

 

[little_legs]

where does that link say nicholas ii wanted to get rid of bessarabia?

it doesn't, i am an airhead to have said that. i'll paraphrase: nikolai was not exactly pleased with one of his territories wanting to break away from his empire.

 

[e19896]

The Israeli military’s attack on the Free Gaza Flotilla has sparked demonstrations in London today. Even before the massacre, there were demonstrations outside 10 Downing Street demanding freedom of passage for the aid ships.

Following the raid, which killed at least 20 peace activists in a commando assault in international waters, demonstrators began gathering at 11am, with both the Stop the War Coalition and ISM London calling a protest for 2pm at Downing Street. The demonstration has now left Downing Street and is heading for the Israeli embassy.

lines of police begin to move chanting demonstrators back from #Israeli embassy in London, 452 (gmt) via http://twitter.com/#search?q=#flotilla

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

then we'd see things start to happen

It certainly would but that government wouldn't put themselves on the line like that.

 

[Maidmarian]

so they have to fight for peace? that doesn't sound logical to me, surely peace is the absence of fighting, the absence of conflict?

Or as used to be said in my day :

Fighting for peace = screwing for chastity.

 

[dylans]

There's been a shift to the right in british politics too.

Absolutely. You know when all this racist shit was flying around on the web over flags and shirts, I argued, and more importantly I really felt, that the people screaming racist abuse, were making me ashamed. Ashamed as a Brit and ashamed at the damage these people were doing for our reputation across the world.
I hope there are Israeli's who are looking at the image of Israel right now and feel the way I did. Fucking ashamed that an image that could be so good and decent was being replaced with one so ugly and vicious.

I hope there are demonstrations in Tel Aviv. More importantly I hope this is the catalyst for some serious soul searching by Israelis. I want them to prove me wrong.

 

[smokedout]

It's not condemning the population to recognise that there has been a shift to the right and to an acceptance of confrontational policies amongst the Israeli public as a whole. The left is isolated and demoralised and the right have free reign to carry out the kind of atrocities we are witnessing

Israel has a conscript army, essentially the might of the IDF is a bunch of middle class kids hyped to fuck, which is why fuck ups like this happen so often Israel has learnt to live with them

doesnt always work though, in Lebanon the kids refused to engage and thats why the invasion failed

 

[dylans]

so they have to fight for peace? that doesn't sound logical to me, surely peace is the absence of fighting, the absence of conflict?

So is slavery

 

[little_legs]

Im not, Im talking about the holocaust. Those pogroms, as bad as the were, didn't completely empty the city of practicing jews and give the survivors a complete fear of practcing judaism, to the extent that now the majority of jews in chisinau (and there are still quite a lot btw) have almost no knowlegdge of it at all. But never mind. There was and is a lot of anti-semitism here.

oh fuck... i am afraid you are referring to the holocaust...

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/moldova.html

 

[thriller]

Came back from the Downing Street demo. Some pics I took:

 

[Pickman's model]

So is slavery

you stupid boy.

 

[Pickman's model]

oh fuck... i am afraid you are referring to the holocaust...

the first sentence gave it away you know:

Im not, Im talking about the holocaust.