agricola
a genuine importer of owls
its more because of the aftermath of ww2
durruti02 said:
likewise i have not gone for fear of being labelled an agent-provocateur, and also because i am ill
Israel in coordinated missile attacks on Gaza
- Thread starter Fez909
- Start date
its more because of the aftermath of ww2
likewise i have not gone for fear of being labelled an agent-provocateur, and also because i am ill
oh btw the only reason i am not at the march is i have a nasty head cold/cough etc
Yeah my health is not too good either.
However we got to the point of knee-jerk US support for IL, the question now is more like:
There are two other linked reasons why the US supports IL in general and the settlers in particular.
The maddest of the settlers are US citizens.
It seems to me that they go to the West Bank to live out some kind of living-on-the-frontier dream - wandering around with automatic weapons over their shoulders, shooting pesky natives with impunity.
Wherever they go, the Cavalry shows up to protect them, and if the natives get restless they're rounded up and coralled in reservations.
Their religious nuttery is, it seems to me, merely a cover for this game of Wild West.
The US as a whole cannot acknowledge that this is wrong. If it did, it'd have to hand itself back to the Native Americans.
yep, I think that has a lot to do with it, re-evaluating the relationship and finding we have many things in common (the old-testament/tanach for a start).
But none of that should equal support for what the state of Israel is doing to a helpless population.
but was not the post WW2 carve up oil based? it was after WW1 when churchill was bombing the kurds for anglo persian oil
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
no they need a destablising force cos of the oil in the area. allows them to legitimse their regieme changes when they feel like it...
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
No, because there was no need for that at the time Israel was created - Egypt was still a Western ally, as was Jordan, as was Iraq in fact as was every other state in the ME.
By the West supporting Israel, and the actions of Israel itself, a lot of the oil (and non-oil) states in the region actually got further away from the West, not closer to it. A pro-Israeli stance was a tremendous complicating factor that required further action by the West to ensure that those states did not go (or if they did go, didnt stay) to the Soviet sphere of influence, or turn to pan-Arabism.
IMHO if the zionists had failed in 1947 the ME would probably still be pro-Western.
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
what even after the shas over throw or the funding of iraq against iran their interventons in syria lebanon afghanistain particlarlly afghanistan.
we don't even have to look back that far to see the distrust of the west by the ME look at the whole deal that Larence sold them...
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
While some of our culture is a remnant of what we brought out of Israel with us, much of it was formed in Diaspora. Jewish culture isn't just Judaic ritual, dwyer.
So Dwyer's throwing around accusations of anti-Semitism because, er, he's annoyed? Nice to see the superior and well-informed intellect at work 
And synagogue practice and ritual would be a product of, er... er...
I look forward to Dwyer's photos of Second Temple era ritual in full flow anytime recently. Mount Gezirim doesn't count, as my new pal the Samaritan priest will be happy to explain at great length to Professor Dwyer.
And synagogue practice and ritual would be a product of, er... er...
I look forward to Dwyer's photos of Second Temple era ritual in full flow anytime recently. Mount Gezirim doesn't count, as my new pal the Samaritan priest will be happy to explain at great length to Professor Dwyer.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
A patchwork quilt of vague remembrances, new additions and whatever else was needed. The usual stuff that comprises Jewish culture.So Dwyer's throwing around accusations of anti-Semitism because, er, he's annoyed? Nice to see the superior and well-informed intellect at work
And synagogue practice and ritual would be a product of, er... er...
I'm aware that synagogue ritual has continually undergone it's own changes over the centuries, but it is a relatively "fixed point" when measured against other aspects of Diaspora Jewish cultures.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
yes there were.
basically in talmudic palestine, society was quite divided, among the jews there were two classes of people - the "am haaretz" (workers/peasants etc) and a small minority of highly educated rabbinic scholars - who regarded the am haaretz with absolute contempt, thinking they were stupid, illiterate etc
as well as there being other sects such as samaritans etc
not meaning to generalise but i think this division was one of the factors that led to the establishment of synagogues in palestine before the exile of the jews - the ordinary people in the countryside could not easily make the long trips to jerusalem for sacrifices etc, and they were not given a warm welcome when they did manage to attend, so it became a once-yearly event - or even less frequent than that
maybe vp or someone can explain this a bit better than i can ... but this is basically what i remember from reading about it ages ago ..
basically in talmudic palestine, society was quite divided, among the jews there were two classes of people - the "am haaretz" (workers/peasants etc) and a small minority of highly educated rabbinic scholars - who regarded the am haaretz with absolute contempt, thinking they were stupid, illiterate etc
as well as there being other sects such as samaritans etc
not meaning to generalise but i think this division was one of the factors that led to the establishment of synagogues in palestine before the exile of the jews - the ordinary people in the countryside could not easily make the long trips to jerusalem for sacrifices etc, and they were not given a warm welcome when they did manage to attend, so it became a once-yearly event - or even less frequent than that
maybe vp or someone can explain this a bit better than i can ... but this is basically what i remember from reading about it ages ago ..
Funnily enough, I was just reading this over my tea:
Bowker is a serious scholar, a relatively open-minded Christian, and an Honorary Canon of Canterbury Cathedral.
John Kloppenberg Chair of the Department and Centre for the Study of Religion at the University of Toronto.
So the evidence for pre-diaspora synagogues come down to one man's revisionist history of one stone tablet
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Wasnt there a second Temple in Egypt somewhere? I seem to remember something about a site after that was in use after the First Temple was destroyed thats called tell-el-yehuda or something similar now.
there may well have been.I find that unlikely but will do some digging.So the evidence for pre-diaspora synagogues come down to one man's revisionist history of one stone tablet
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
no, its a separate Temple that was in Egypt. Ill try and find more.
more info = http://romanhistorybooks.typepad.com/roman_history_books_and_m/2006/08/a_jewish_temple.html
edit: theres quite a lot of stuff there about early synagogues too
After that archaeological interlude 
- this:
Greek comrades may be very, very interested
Reuters headline now reads "U.S. says arms shipment to Israel not linked to Gaza" - never believe anything until it's been officially denied! - as someone resembling Claud Cockburn wrote.
- this:Greek comrades may be very, very interested
Reuters headline now reads "U.S. says arms shipment to Israel not linked to Gaza" - never believe anything until it's been officially denied! - as someone resembling Claud Cockburn wrote.
Dimitris
Well-Known Member
After that archaeological interlude
Greek comrades may be very, very interested
Reuters headline now reads "U.S. says arms shipment to Israel not linked to Gaza" - never believe anything until it's been officially denied! - as someone resembling Claud Cockburn wrote.
http://athens.indymedia.org/front.php3?lang=el&article_id=966659
Yeap this seems to be confirmed. It is more than interesting to say the least. I do not know if there is anything planned up to now, but I bet that there will be... at least some demos in that area.
I will keep you posted of any updates.
As you admit here, Jewish culture was most certainly not "formed in diaspora." It developed in diaspora, but it was formed in Israel.
I'd be interested to know whether, as a Jew, you agree with Laptop that diaspora is also "where it belongs."
Dimitris
Well-Known Member
Dear our Greek comrades,
We are issuing the following call to the Greek and international movement.
We want to ask your opinion about this call, and to work together jointly
to publicize this attempt to ship arms from Greece and to block the
shipment. Do you this can be achieved, even media attention? Do you think
labor unions, particularly of port workers, would become involved? Please
keep us informed about any actions or further information you discover,
including potentially involved companies or any other details.
We will translate and publicize any actions you do in Arabic and the Arab
media.
Towards victory!
In solidarity
Information Dept - PFLP
The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine calls upon the Greek
movement, the Greek people and all international progressive forces to
halt the planned shipment of U.S. arms to Israel from the Greek port of
Astakos. International media reports have revealed that the U.S. Navy is
attempting to ship 325 20-foot containers of ammunition, over 3000 tons,
in an emergency shipment of arms to aid the occupation in its ongoing war
crimes against the Palestinian people in Gaza.
The PFLP is calling upon the people of the world, and particularly the
Greek movement to act to stop this shipment of arms. The U.S. has been
attempting to hire a merchant ship to transport the weaponry to the
Israelis at Asdud port in mid- to late January. This weaponry must not be
allowed to enter the hands of the Israelis, where it will be used to
massacre our people in Gaza! It must be stopped by all means!
These bombs are going to be used in Israel's wars - against Palestinians,
Lebanese, Arabs, Iranians, and the people of the region. This emergency
shipment indicates that the occupier is demanding ever more weaponry in
its futile war of massacres against the Palestinian people and the
Palestinian resistance.
The demand of the Palestinian people, the Arab people, and all progressive
forces - including the progressive forces in the U.S. - is the
international isolation and the end of all U.S. aid to Israel. The U.S.
government, however is Israel's strategic partner, and is committed to
partnering with Israel in its massacres and crimes against our people. If
they will not stop the arms shipment, the people of Greece and the people
of the world must stop it for them!
The PFLP salutes the Greek people - your unconditional solidarity and your
mass demonstrations in support of the Palestinian people have sent a
strong and powerful message of support, combined with aid, volunteers, and
action on the ground. Your own courageous struggles for justice have
inspired us and people around the world.
We are calling upon:
1. All Greek companies and all shipping companies to refuse to carry any
shipment of arms to Israel. Any shipping company who carries these weapons
has the blood of the people of Gaza on its hands!
2. Greek workers and all port workers to refuse to load the cargo for any
shipment of arms to Israel. The strong hands of Greek workers and Greek
labor should not be sullied with this dangerous cargo!
3. The Greek government to prohibit the use of its port to ship arms to
the occupation state massacring our people!
4. The Greek people, the Greek movement, and all international and
progressive forces to take action to stop any such shipment from loading
or leaving the port of Astakos!
The PFLP is calling for your continuing unconditional solidarity and
support to prevent the U.S. and Israel from using the land and ports of
the Greek people a supply base for occupation, massacres, and crimes.
The Greek people have a proud history and present of struggle. The
relationship between the Arab people and the Greek people is strong and
powerful and we call upon you today to march with us once again toward
victory and justice for the Palestinian people and block this arms
shipment!
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine
January 10, 2009
We are issuing the following call to the Greek and international movement.
We want to ask your opinion about this call, and to work together jointly
to publicize this attempt to ship arms from Greece and to block the
shipment. Do you this can be achieved, even media attention? Do you think
labor unions, particularly of port workers, would become involved? Please
keep us informed about any actions or further information you discover,
including potentially involved companies or any other details.
We will translate and publicize any actions you do in Arabic and the Arab
media.
Towards victory!
In solidarity
Information Dept - PFLP
The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine calls upon the Greek
movement, the Greek people and all international progressive forces to
halt the planned shipment of U.S. arms to Israel from the Greek port of
Astakos. International media reports have revealed that the U.S. Navy is
attempting to ship 325 20-foot containers of ammunition, over 3000 tons,
in an emergency shipment of arms to aid the occupation in its ongoing war
crimes against the Palestinian people in Gaza.
The PFLP is calling upon the people of the world, and particularly the
Greek movement to act to stop this shipment of arms. The U.S. has been
attempting to hire a merchant ship to transport the weaponry to the
Israelis at Asdud port in mid- to late January. This weaponry must not be
allowed to enter the hands of the Israelis, where it will be used to
massacre our people in Gaza! It must be stopped by all means!
These bombs are going to be used in Israel's wars - against Palestinians,
Lebanese, Arabs, Iranians, and the people of the region. This emergency
shipment indicates that the occupier is demanding ever more weaponry in
its futile war of massacres against the Palestinian people and the
Palestinian resistance.
The demand of the Palestinian people, the Arab people, and all progressive
forces - including the progressive forces in the U.S. - is the
international isolation and the end of all U.S. aid to Israel. The U.S.
government, however is Israel's strategic partner, and is committed to
partnering with Israel in its massacres and crimes against our people. If
they will not stop the arms shipment, the people of Greece and the people
of the world must stop it for them!
The PFLP salutes the Greek people - your unconditional solidarity and your
mass demonstrations in support of the Palestinian people have sent a
strong and powerful message of support, combined with aid, volunteers, and
action on the ground. Your own courageous struggles for justice have
inspired us and people around the world.
We are calling upon:
1. All Greek companies and all shipping companies to refuse to carry any
shipment of arms to Israel. Any shipping company who carries these weapons
has the blood of the people of Gaza on its hands!
2. Greek workers and all port workers to refuse to load the cargo for any
shipment of arms to Israel. The strong hands of Greek workers and Greek
labor should not be sullied with this dangerous cargo!
3. The Greek government to prohibit the use of its port to ship arms to
the occupation state massacring our people!
4. The Greek people, the Greek movement, and all international and
progressive forces to take action to stop any such shipment from loading
or leaving the port of Astakos!
The PFLP is calling for your continuing unconditional solidarity and
support to prevent the U.S. and Israel from using the land and ports of
the Greek people a supply base for occupation, massacres, and crimes.
The Greek people have a proud history and present of struggle. The
relationship between the Arab people and the Greek people is strong and
powerful and we call upon you today to march with us once again toward
victory and justice for the Palestinian people and block this arms
shipment!
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine
January 10, 2009
While I hesitate to use wikipedia as a source, some interesting info can be found here:So the evidence for pre-diaspora synagogues come down to one man's revisionist history of one stone tablet
Oldest_synagogues_in_the_World
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Yep, but they were quite different beasts, probably a good analogy would be between "smells and bells" Anglicanism and a weird Quaker/methodist hybrid. Temple worship was the province of the elite, and didn't exactly feed the spiritual hunger of pre-Diaspora Jewry (hence the 57 varieties of sects that sprang up).
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Culture is fluid, it hybridises even in relatively closed societies. Some of it was formed in Israel, some in Diaspora, some of it developed and hybridised before Diaspora, some after.
That depends what you mean when you talk about "Jewish culture".
My personal opinion is that as much of our non-religious culture was either formed or developed almost beyond recognition of the original source in the Diaspora, that it's more at home in the place it evolved. Herzl and his cronies thought so, which was why they took a position of "re-making" an Israel devoid of much of that culture.
As for the religious culture, I'm no more qualified than any non-rabbinical Jewish adult to comment on that.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Good article from Pilger here.
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/features/disgrace_of_the_silent_treatment
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/features/disgrace_of_the_silent_treatment
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