Israel in coordinated missile attacks on Gaza

[Sasaferrato]

Sas does, clearly.

So, there is no organisation that you would regard as being terrorist?

 

[Aldebaran]

You can start by stopping firing rockets.

Is it thus your assessment that every palestinian has rockets to fire?

salaam.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

The IRA is still a terrorist organisation. What changed was the gutless Blair government. ( That said, it was Major who opened dialogue, for that alone he deserved to lose the general election. )

The upshot is that there are killers walking free due to the Good Friday agreement, and killers in government in NI. Nauseating doesn't cover it.

So, what did you make of Israel electing Begin and Shamir given that they were both pretty clearly terrorists? (and with British soldiers' blood on their hands into the bargain)

 

[Sasaferrato]

Corrected for you

Naive in the extreme, as well as being puerile.

 

[Spion]

So while supporting them in some respects, you don't agree with everything they do? Arrogant wanker

*laughs* Oh, now he starts the abuse. Do you only support those with whom you are in 100% agreement? Or can you suport some of what they do but not all?

What a weird binary world you live in

 

[claphamboy]

People who fire rockets into civilian communities are terrorists in my book. You, of course, are perfectly free to hold your own view. I would suggest though, that Hamas would be regarded as terrorists by a large majority of the population.

So, you agree that both the US & UK governments are terrorists for firing rockets into and dropping bombs onto civilian communities in, for example, Iraq?

 

[Spion]

Naive in the extreme, as well as being puerile.

Yeah, cos Palestinians in Gaza aren't REFUGEES are they? REFUGEES from ethnic cleansing

 

[Sasaferrato]

So, what do you make of Israel electing Begin and Shamir given that they were both pretty clearly terrorists?

Yes, they were. That was then, this is now. A bit odd to support the ' rehabilitation ' of Adams and McGuinnes, yet condemn Shamir and Begin.

A case of double standards perhaps?

 

[Spion]

No. Absolutely not. A terrorist is just that, whichever faith they purport to be.

What a twisted mindset you have.

'Terrorist' = bad
Terror that kills 600-odd refugees in 11 days = good

 

[Sasaferrato]

So, you agree that both the US & UK governments are terrorists for firing rockets into and dropping bombs onto civilian communities in, for example, Iraq?

Or Berlin, Dusseldorf, Hannover etc etc etc...

 

[In Bloom]

*laughs* Oh, now he starts the abuse. Do you only support those with whom you are in 100% agreement? Or can you suport some of what they do but not all?

What a weird binary world you live in

I was meaning to parody belboid's bizarre personal attacks against me for not supporting everything done by Palestinians ever. Obviously it didn't come over the way I intended

 

[Sasaferrato]

What a twisted mindset you have.

'Terrorist' = bad
Terror that kills 600-odd refugees in 11 days = good

I'm not a terribly patient person, especially when dealing with the deliberately obtuse. I won't descend to you childish level of insult, I'll simply ignore you from this point on.

 

[claphamboy]

Yes, they were. That was then, this is now. A bit odd to support the ' rehabilitation ' of Adams and McGuinnes, yet condemn Shamir and Begin.

A case of double standards perhaps?

A bit odd to support the ' rehabilitation ' of Shamir and Begin, yet condemn Hamas.

A case of double standards perhaps?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Yes, they were. That was then, this is now. A bit odd to support the ' rehabilitation ' of Adams and McGuinnes, yet condemn Shamir and Begin.

A case of double standards perhaps?

Well, as I understand it, Israel has been condemning and most here would say, collectively punishing the people of Gaza for electing Hamas and justifying it, even before the rockets started up again on the basis that Hamas were terrorists. So it seemed like an interesting question to ask in that context.

 

[TAE]

A terrorist in government is still a terrorist.

It saddens me beyond belief when people do not support their own.

Huh? People should support their own terrorist governments?

Israel's response may be regarded as disproportional by some, but they are not subject to rocket fire landing absolutely randomly in their communities. Israel must do what it needs to do.

Wrong, Israel, like all countries, should not JUST care about their own citizens.

 

[In Bloom]

Yes, they were. That was then, this is now. A bit odd to support the ' rehabilitation ' of Adams and McGuinnes, yet condemn Shamir and Begin.

A case of double standards perhaps?

You're condemning as terrorism a small number of largely inneffective rocket attacks, while treating the bombing of a densely populated civillian area as simply "what needs to be done".

You really, really have absolutely no grounds to start talking about double standards.

 

[Spion]

Naive in the extreme, as well as being puerile.

I'm not a terribly patient person, especially when dealing with the deliberately obtuse. I won't descend to you childish level of insult, I'll simply ignore you from this point on.

Do what you want. Your petulance is of no concern to me.

I'm still baffled as to how someone can condemn 'terrorism' and not see that killing several hundred people is an act of terror.

As a former military man you should clearly understand that just about all organised violence aims to produce terror in its recipients.

 

[Spion]

I was meaning to parody belboid's bizarre personal attacks against me for not supporting everything done by Palestinians ever. Obviously it didn't come over the way I intended

Best leave the clever stuff for a less fast moving thread

I'm still interested in your real answer tho

 

[Aldebaran]

Well since every Palestinian is armed with rockets, this israely agression should not last long. One wonders why there are israelis left, in the first place.

salaam.

 

[In Bloom]

Best leave the clever stuff for a less fast moving thread

Yeah, sorry, didn't really think that one through.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make about the trade union stuff is that Hamas are, as an organisation, deeply anti-working class, and I don't see what good it does for the left to go around "supporting" Hamas as an organisation.

I'm still interested in your real answer tho

I'm of the opinion that there's a difference between Hamas the organisation and Palestinians who happen to be a part of Hamas reacting against the occupation of Gaza. I support the latter (but not everything they do), but not the former.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Is it thus your assessment that every palestinian has rockets to fire?

salaam.

It is a fact that the people of Gaza elected a government that they knew would fire rockets.

 

[Sasaferrato]

A bit odd to support the ' rehabilitation ' of Shamir and Begin, yet condemn Hamas.

A case of double standards perhaps?

No. That is not what I said.

 

[Aldebaran]

I'm puzzled. How are they "anti working class"? Because they batttle over unions which are fortresses of the opposite political party? That is merely politics enforced by violence... (do you want to imply the US government is anti-working class because they enforce that in faraway lands on the citizens of those nations?)

salaam.

 

[TAE]

It is a fact that the people of Gaza elected a government that they knew would fire rockets.

Just like the israelis elected a government which bombs civlian targets. We can play this game all day. Neither side should bomb civlians IMO.

 

[claphamboy]

It is a fact that the people of Gaza elected a government that they knew would fire rockets.

They only fired the rockets AFTER Israel broke the cease-fire.

Besides the range of these rockets are fairly shit and fall on land that does not actually belong to Israel, it is land stolen & occupied after the 1967 war, from my understanding it is illegally occupied under international law.

 

[In Bloom]

do you want to imply the US government is anti-working class because they enforce that in faraway lands on the citizens of those nations?

Well, they are. What have I said on here that would lead you to think I'm a supporter of the US government?

 

[Aldebaran]

It is a fact that the people of Gaza elected a government that they knew would fire rockets.

I thought there was a long standing one sided call for cease fire, somewhere on that road, but I can be mistaken.
But what about the citizens of Israel who elect governments they know will kill innocents by the dozens and who's elected have in fact killed innocents, by the dozens?

salaam.

 

[agricola]

It is a fact that the people of Gaza elected a government that they knew would fire rockets.

Fatah fire rockets as well. So its a choice between a corrupt party that fires rockets, or a religious party that fires rockets. Or they could back Israel, which fires rockets. And shells!

 

[Aldebaran]

Well, they are. What have I said on here that would lead you to think I'm a supporter of the US government?

What I think is that you are tearing things way out of proportions. This has nothing to do with any "working class" but with politics.

salaam.

 

[Spion]

the point I was trying to make about the trade union stuff is that Hamas are, as an organisation, deeply anti-working class, and I don't see what good it does for the left to go around "supporting" Hamas as an organisation.

I agree they are anti-working class, but:

1. If A racist aggressor is set on physically destroying your ethnic group and this 'anti-working class' organisation is one of those physically standing in the way of the destruction of all classes of your people then - in that act - they should be supported/worked with.
2. Now, I don't know the exact class breakdown of the Hamas membership and staff but I suspect that a lot of their people *are* working class. It is also the case that in their social programmes they certainly work with the w/c and poor communities of Gaza.

What's the conclusion of this? Hamas need to be beaten politically and their w/c, urban poor, peasant supporters convinced of their ultimately cross-class aims. But you won't get to do any of that if you stand on the sidelines and let the IDF decimate you.