Israel in coordinated missile attacks on Gaza

[belboid]

If we had a strong UN, they could occupy Gaza, West Bank and Israel, then divide the land equitably. I don't honestly see anything else working.

that's pretty much what Hamas have called for, but the Israeli state has opposes. you have just marked yourself out as a target for Israel, I hope you dont live anywhere near a school or a hospital.

 

[durruti02]

It is entirely practical. I support them in the same way I'd support an Imam who was being attacked outside in his mosque in West Yorks. IE, that I would stand with him against racist violence while not agreeing with everything in his worldview.

I've already said all this tho - is it really that difficult to understand or do you have a really short attention span?

no that is differerent .. you are NOT supporting him as an Imam ( i would think ) but defending him from racism or fascists or whatever .. so equally we can say we are AGAINST israel brutality but NOT supportting hamas

 

[claphamboy]

second part .. yes absolutely .. it is idiocy

first part .. i am not so sure .. can you give me an example?

Look no further than Northern Ireland & the IRA/Sinn Fein dropping their demands for British withdrawal to accepting the status quo until the majority decides to support any change.

 

[agricola]

Israel did NOT retaliate, they kicked off the fucking whole shebang.

How many people have those 'Hamas' rockets (and lets be honest, we dont actually know how many of those rockets WERE fired by Hamas, and how many by other opponents of Israel) killed? Over the last eleven years? Does it come anywhere close tyo the numbers killed by the Israeli forces over the last eleven days? does it fuck. Israel is the aggressor as everyone but mad zionists knows.

Its 18 deaths from rocket fire since 2001, and you are right - both Islamic Jihad and everyones favourite Fatah have fired rockets from Gaza into Israel (indeed, both groups fired rockets just as the ceasefire started in June last year, and had to be told by Hamas to stop).

(note for sass, zachor and durruti - 18 is less than half the death toll in that school)

 

[Spion]

Hamas has to stop firing off rockets before anything positive will happen.

Sorry, but the rockets are virtually irellevant. They are an Israeli excuse to continue to besiege Gaza with the aim of gaining a more compliant Palestinian regime there.

Claim: Israel's invasion of Gaza is a response to unprovoked rocket attacks

Status: FALSE

The Israeli Haaretz, November 5, 2008: “Israel Defense Forces troops yesterday killed a Hamas gunman and wounded two others in the first armed clash in the Gaza Strip since a cease-fire was declared there in June. […] An Israeli army spokeswoman said troops had entered the territory.”


The Israeli Yediot Ahronot, November 5, 2008: “For the first time since the ceasefire took effect in June, IDF forces operated deep in the Gaza Strip Tuesday night.”


The Times (UK), November 5, 2008: “A five-month truce between Israel and the Islamist rulers of the Gaza Strip was foundering yesterday after Israeli special forces entered the besieged territory and fought.”


Amnesty International, November 10, 2008: “A spate of Israeli and Palestinian attacks and counter-attacks in the past 24 hours could spell the end of a five-and-a-half-month ceasefire. […] The killing of six Palestinian militants in Gaza by Israeli forces in a ground incursion and air strikes on 4 November was followed by a barrage of dozens of Palestinian rockets.”


The Guardian, November 5, 2008: “Hamas militants fired more than 35 rockets into Israel today, hours after the Israeli army killed six people inside the Gaza Strip in the first major exchange of fire since a truce took effect in June.”


The Independent, November 5, 2008: “Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip fired more than 35 rockets towards Israel today, the army and the Islamist group said, hours after the Israeli army killed six militants in the coastal territory.”

From http://www.3quarksdaily.com/3quarks...the-6-month-ceasefire-in-israelpalestine.html[/QUOTE]

 

[belboid]

no that is differerent .. you are NOT supporting himke as an Imam ( i would thhink ) but defending him from racism or fascists or whatever

if he's being attacked because he's an Imam, then you are defending him PRECISELY because he is an Imam. By your logic you should be standing on the sidelines shouting 'go on, kill each other'

 

[In Bloom]

It is entirely practical. I support them in the same way I'd support an Imam who was being attacked outside in his mosque in West Yorks. IE, that I would stand with him against racist violence while not agreeing with everything in his worldview.

I've already said all this tho - is it really that difficult to understand or do you have a really short attention span?

Not really the best analogy. To lend support to Hamas ("critical" or otherwise) is to lend support to a ruling party who play a role in the oppression and exploitation of the working class in Palestine. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't act in solidarity with Palestinians struggling against oppression by the Israeli state, but nor should we let the Palestinian state (which is what Hamas represents) completely off the hook.

 

[durruti02]

Not really the best analogy. To lend support to Hamas ("critical" or otherwise) is to lend support to a ruling party who play a role in the oppression and exploitation of the working class in Palestine. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't act in solidarity with Palestinians struggling against oppression by the Israeli state, but nor should we let the Palestinian state (which is what Hamas represents) completely off the hook.

^^^ yes

 

[belboid]

what does that mean in reality? Not a lot, does it?

 

[durruti02]

if he's being attacked because he's an Imam, then you are defending him PRECISELY because he is an Imam. By your logic you should be standing on the sidelines shouting 'go on, kill each other'

i argued that at Finsbury park .. if the nf and fundies want a row let them do it .. if i would NOT defend a mosque that is racist or anti semitic etc

 

[durruti02]

what does that mean in reality? Not a lot, does it?

it certainly does .. it identifies a solution that is against all those who oppress based on race ethncity or relegion .. the only solution for palestine

 

[agricola]

Not really the best analogy. To lend support to Hamas ("critical" or otherwise) is to lend support to a ruling party who play a role in the oppression and exploitation of the working class in Palestine. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't act in solidarity with Palestinians struggling against oppression by the Israeli state, but nor should we let the Palestinian state (which is what Hamas represents) completely off the hook.

I would imagine that pretty much any group subject to the extreme treatment that the Palestinians have been for the past sixty years would produce politics akin to those popular within Palestine. For instance, the ANC had some pretty mad politics at the height of apartheid but there were fairly clear and obvious reasons for this. Criticizing people for holding extreme views when they have pretty extreme reasons for holding them is a bit naive, tbh.

 

[Spion]

you are NOT supporting him as an Imam ( i would think ) but defending him from racism or fascists or whatever .. so equally we can say we are AGAINST israel brutality but NOT supportting hamas

Gradually, you are getting this aren't you?

Continuing the example, I would support the Durrutti Street Mosque Defence Committee when they defended themselves against racist attacks, but would argue vigorously with them against any manifestations of Islamic politics. In practice therefore I refuse to condemn them - I support them in some ways - while disagreeing with other things they say/do, there fore not supporting them in others. This is analagous to my attitude to Hamas.

As for the racists attacking them I would not support them one iota in what they are doing. I would condemn them. This is analagous to my attitude to the IDF

 

[In Bloom]

what does that mean in reality? Not a lot, does it?

Assuming you're referring to my post, it means what it says.

In practical terms, there's very little that can be done from here other than to put pressure on the Israeli state to withdraw, this is true whether or not you make empty, abstract statements about "critical support" for Hamas that translate into nothing in terms of material support for the Palestinians currently suffering under occupation.

 

[durruti02]

I would imagine that pretty much any group subject to the extreme treatment that the Palestinians have been for the past sixty years would produce politics akin to those popular within Palestine. For instance, the ANC had some pretty mad politics at the height of apartheid but there were fairly clear and obvious reasons for this. Criticizing people for holding extreme views when they have pretty extreme reasons for holding them is a bit naive, tbh.

no i disagree .. it is a matter of principle to stand against racism, fundamentalist religion and fascism REGARDLESS of the circumstances .. yes we can understand put you have to say what is right .. it is dishonest and opportunist to do otherwise ..

one funny thing form the respect debacle was of course the muslims who SWP etc wished to recruit did not touch them with a bargepole as they saw thru their lies

 

[Spion]

Not really the best analogy. To lend support to Hamas ("critical" or otherwise) is to lend support to a ruling party who play a role in the oppression and exploitation of the working class in Palestine.

Yeah, sure they are, so you are with them when their guns are pointing the right way and against them when their guns are pointing the wrong way

 

[belboid]

it certainly does .. it identifies a solution that is against all those who oppress based on race ethncity or relegion .. the only solution for palestine

nonsense, it identifies nothing, absolutely nothing, it just makes a vague condemnation of states.

 

[In Bloom]

I would imagine that pretty much any group subject to the extreme treatment that the Palestinians have been for the past sixty years would produce politics akin to those popular within Palestine. For instance, the ANC had some pretty mad politics at the height of apartheid but there were fairly clear and obvious reasons for this. Criticizing people for holding extreme views when they have pretty extreme reasons for holding them is a bit naive, tbh.

I'm not talking about their "extreme views" though, I'm talking about Hamas' position of power in Palestine. They are the ruling party there and the leadership of Hamas has deliberately escalated this conflict in order to bolster their own support base.

 

[belboid]

Assuming you're referring to my post, it means what it says.

fuck all then

 

[Aldebaran]

Perhaps the same muslims would or would not but as it would be against the US I suspect they probably would. But my point is that you will see in all the demos around the world there are a lot of religous overtones by some of the muslims as you say, and this is because muslims largely see this as a religious clash and this important point cannot be overlooked when discussing this topic. Its not just about the occupied land.

This is also why populations in the mid-east are angry not just at the massacre being commited by the Israeli terrorists but the bond they have with their fellow muslims in Palestine. You then throw in the Al-aqsa mosque issue and Jerusalem etc etc and muslims view it all as one big clash.

That is not quite correct to the core, but still touches ground.
Personally, I'm sick of it that God and religion is teared into anything Muslims think they have to complain about or demonstrate against.
But that it is done has its historical defined roots and it is with putting the emphasis on these roots in a clever way by whomever who wants to gain from it, that such can surface whenever the call for it comes.

salaam.

 

[In Bloom]

Yeah, sure they are, so you are with them when their guns are pointing the right way and against them when their guns are pointing the wrong way

Who do you mean by "them" here? The leadership of Hamas? The rank and file? Palestinians not actively involved in Hamas in the first place?

This failure to distinguish between the ruling party of a country and the working class there is baffling coming from self-described Marxists, it really is.

 

[belboid]

i argued that at Finsbury park .. if the nf and fundies want a row let them do it .. if i would NOT defend a mosque that is racist or anti semitic etc

and now you seem to be identifying everyone who goes to a mosque or whatever as agreeing with whatever the Imam says (I guess you mean the Imam, as a mosque itself cant be racist). A rather anti-marxist and reactionary position.

 

[Spion]

They are the ruling party there and the leadership of Hamas has deliberately escalated this conflict in order to bolster their own support base.

Oh, FFS Hamas 'escalated the conflict' by asking for a renewed ceasefire, its extension to the WB and a lifting of the blockade of Gaza.

 

[agricola]

no i disagree .. it is a matter of principle to stand against racism, fundamentalist religion and fascism REGARDLESS of the circumstances .. yes we can understand put you have to say what is right .. it is dishonest and opportunist to do otherwise ..

"yes, you really shouldnt hate those people because they are israeli and have taken your land, killed large numbers of you and imprisoned the rest for the last sixty years, and are still bombing you right now irrespective of where you are or what you are doing. well at least you shouldnt hate them because they are israeli"

 

[In Bloom]

fuck all then

Any chance you're going to reply to the main point of my posts?

In practical terms, there's very little that can be done from here other than to put pressure on the Israeli state to withdraw, this is true whether or not you make empty, abstract statements about "critical support" for Hamas that translate into nothing in terms of material support for the Palestinians currently suffering under occupation.

 

[durruti02]

Gradually, you are getting this aren't you?

Continuing the example, I would support the Durrutti Street Mosque Defence Committee when they defended themselves against racist attacks, but would argue vigorously with them against any manifestations of Islamic politics. In practice therefore I refuse to condemn them - I support them in some ways - while disagreeing with other things they say/do, there fore not supporting them in others. This is analagous to my attitude to Hamas.

As for the racists attacking them I would not support them one iota in what they are doing. I would condemn them. This is analagous to my attitude to the IDF

no sorry i continue to say you are wrong ..

firstly what sort of mosque is it? is it like the anti semitic one at finsbury park? .. surely you would not have supported that?

ok it is not .. it is an average run of the mill mosque .. it is under attack .. i will be there too but NOT to support 'The Durruti Street Mosque' BUT to oppose racism and fascism and defend my neighbours as PEOPLE not as muslims and certainly NOT the imam ..

you do NOT have to support the mosque to oppose it's opponents .. this is a muddle the left have got themselves into since lenin oppossed luxembourg on nationalism

 

[In Bloom]

Oh, FFS Hamas 'escalated the conflict' by asking for a renewed ceasefire, its extension to the WB and a lifting of the blockade of Gaza.

Political parties are always completely open about their intentions, especially during times of conflict

 

[durruti02]

Who do you mean by "them" here? The leadership of Hamas? The rank and file? Palestinians not actively involved in Hamas in the first place?

This failure to distinguish between the ruling party of a country and the working class there is baffling coming from self-described Marxists, it really is.

fucking spot on ..

 

[Spion]

Who do you mean by "them" here? The leadership of Hamas? The rank and file?

In such a brief answer (I'm trying to work at the same time) I meant 'Hamas'

This failure to distinguish between the ruling party of a country and the working class there is baffling coming from self-described Marxists, it really is.

Hamas as a ruling party is largely staffed by its working classes.

We can start to analyse them in more detail if you like but if you want a sensible discussion best to keep it cordial, eh?

 

[durruti02]

and now you seem to be identifying everyone who goes to a mosque or whatever as agreeing with whatever the Imam says (I guess you mean the Imam, as a mosque itself cant be racist). A rather anti-marxist and reactionary position.

the finsbury park mosque was taken over ( against the wishes of the then imam ) by anti semitic etc scum