Israel in coordinated missile attacks on Gaza

[Spion]

i find it hard to believe ( sorry i am lying ) western socialists and liberals ( ah that is it ) are so are taken in by the words of islamist fundamentalists

No-one is 'taken in', you fool.

Would it have also been wrong to stand shoulder to shoulder with Jewish religious leaders or Jewish Betar (ie, fascist) activists against Russian or German pogroms? Of course it wouldn't.

Would it be wrong to stand shoulder to shoulder with an Imam whose mosque is being firebombed in East London or Yorkshire? Of course it wouldn't.

Would it have been wrong to stand with a black separatist against the South African police in the 1980s? Of course not.

There's a massive difference between agreeing with everything someone says and recognising that no matter what they think they deserve to be defended from racist violence.

 

[Sasaferrato]

So, how do you explain the many Jews, some of which are posting on here, that hate the Zionists for what they are currently doing?

In the same way as I explain Englishmen who supported Nazi Germany.

 

[winjer]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/06/gaza-israel-palestinians
Israel continues to insist that the bulk of those killed are Hamas and Islamic Jihad fighters, although its claim to be going to extraordinary lengths to target only "terrorists" has been undermined by one of its own tanks firing on a building being used by Israeli troops, killing four.

Doubtless they were harbouring militants or smuggling rockets or posing as doctors.

 

[Spion]

In the same way as I explain Englishmen who supported Nazi Germany.

Can we stop feeding this clueless old troll please?

 

[Barking_Mad]

yes, ( your second part) but re the first part, why do so many on here refuse to condemn hamas? arab nationalism is a significant contribution to all this

.. and before you say am i against arab nationalism alone?, no i am against ALL nationalism as it ALWAYS ends on massacre and pogram

Hamas are wankers. But then given the history of the Palestinian people and the violence they have lived under, is it perhaps any wonder that their 'defenders' happen to be a bunch of cunts?

Indeed, you might argue that the reason for the Israeli state is a murderous actor is that it was founded on the beliefs of a set of people radiclaised by Germany barbarism.

 

[durruti02]

No-one is 'taken in', you fool.

Would it have also been wrong to stand shoulder to shoulder with Jewish religious leaders or Jewish Betar (ie, fascist) activists against Russian or German pogroms? Of course it wouldn't.

Would it be wrong to stand shoulder to shoulder with an Imam whose mosque is being firebombed in East London or Yorkshire? Of course it wouldn't.

Would it have been wrong to stand with a black separatist against the South African police in the 1980s? Of course not.

There's a massive difference between agreeing with everything someone says and recognising that no matter what they think they deserve to be defended from racist violence.

so condemn them, and their religious fundamentalism and racism now .. and lets see VP and the others etc do the same .. it would clear the waters considerably

 

[goldenecitrone]

In the same way as I explain Englishmen who supported Nazi Germany.

I never realised there were so many Jewish aristocrats posting here.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Israel was founded by Irgun, the barbaric military terrorist group who killed many innocent people which later went on to become what people know as the Likud party.

So, you might argue that the foundations of an Israeli State were founded on terrorism and not peace. What chance do the Palestinian people have?

And being a supposed Christian, you should perhaps condemn less and sympathise more?

They blew up my father, in the King David hotel. He didn't hold it against them, so why should you. My father described Israel as the last nation on earth with the balls to defend themselves vigorously when attacked, as they have been by their neighbours on a number of occasions.

I take it that you condemn the Stormont assembly on the same basis, it does, after all, have many sitting who have blood on their hands; or is it just the Jews who are terrorists?

 

[durruti02]

Hamas are wankers. But then given the history of the Palestinian people and the violence they have lived under, is it perhaps any wonder that their 'defenders' happen to be a bunch of cunts?

Indeed, you might argue that the reason for the Israeli state is a murderous actor is that it was founded on the beliefs of a set of people radiclaised by Germany barbarism.

yes of course we understand how thsi things come about, oppression often / usually provokes reaction .. but we hear this too much .. i do not see people excusing the alieneated whites of burnley and kirless being excused for their support for fascism ( btw levels of alienation a quantum leap apart ) .. nationalism must be condemned whenever and wherever .. IT is the course ( as part of capital) of all these massacres

 

[belboid]

dear god your liberalism is getting worse by the second durruti. shameful.

I wont condemn Hamas at the moment because they are the only body trying to fight back against the israeli invasion. Your woolly liberalism would, if taken up, only lead to far greater deaths of palestinian people as the israeli military would still be massively powerful and would walk unoppossed through the entirety of gaza.

And your nonsensical claim that Hamas cannot change is just that, nonsensical. Every organisation changes - sometimes fundamentally, sometimes not - Hamas changes according to the needs of its base, so sometimes it is highly religious organisation, sometimes a military one, sometimes a 'charitable' one providing schools hospitals etc. That is why it has gained- whether you like it or not - the massive support of the Gazans. And that is why Israel wants to kill every Gazan, because they support, or sympathise with, Hamas. Your 'Hamas are evil' spiel just gic des them more succour, no matter what mealy mouthed words of opposition to Israel you append.

 

[Spion]

so condemn them, and their religious fundamentalism and racism now .. and lets see VP and the others etc do the same .. it would clear the waters considerably

I am totally against Hamas' political-religious doctrines and opposed deeply to any anti-semitism manifested in their ideology.

At the same time I fully support Hamas and any other Palestinian organisation in their defence of Gaza against the Zionist forces' onslaught and believe that as victims of racism and ethnic cleansing they have the right to defend themselves as they see fit.

There. Perhaps you'd like to draw up a form so that everyone can fill it in before contributing to discussion here so you don't get confused in future?

 

[agricola]

They blew up my father, in the King David hotel. He didn't hold it against them, so why should you. My father described Israel as the last nation on earth with the balls to defend themselves vigorously when attacked, as they have been by their neighbours on a number of occasions.

I take it that you condemn the Stormont assembly on the same basis, it does, after all, have many sitting who have blood on their hands; or is it just the Jews who are terrorists?

What is it about this issue that causes posters who have previously appeared somewhat reasonable to make nonsensical points like this?

 

[durruti02]

I'd be more inclined to see the people on here has taking a moral view of the Israeli action against Hamas if they weren't so damn suspiously quite about other conflicts where Israel or the West isn't involved. I've been here for a good few years and I can't recall people expressing concern about conflicts where Israel isn't invovled. Now why whould that be I wonder....?

kurdistan stands out for me as it goes .. 100,000 kurds killed, mass ethnic cleansing etc etc etc .. search kurdistan on urban75 and you come up with fuck all

( or ideed the al quada attacks on mosul that killed 800 a couple of years ago )

i also, while yet again utterly condemning israel at the momnet, think that massacre has been an almost regular act in palestine for too long .. i wonder how many people know of, the 10,000 ( as arafat claimed ) palestinians massacred by jordan in the 7ts or of the hundreds of christains massacred by the PLO in lebanon ( can't remember where) and in fact the continual massacres in lebanon ( though many of them of course related to israels expulsions of 48)

i think the main differrence is here though is israel is a country ( that many of us have affinity too that claims ( and IS in most ways) civilised, that can NOT deal in a civilised way with the people it MUST share the land with ..

 

[claphamboy]

hamas is essentially a reliegious organisation .. any changes in tactics are simply that, tactical .. hamas has not changed, nor gone against its religeious belief that palestine MUST be muslim, fundamentally, but simply belives it will easier destroy israel but taking things one step at a time ..

i find it hard to believe ( sorry i am lying ) western socialists and liberals ( ah that is it ) are so are taken in by the words of islamist fundamentalists
yet quite rightly identify the reactionary nationalist basis of the israeli state

History is littered with religious-based social-political groups changing their fundamental demands in order to arrive at a peace, there is no reason to believe that can not be achieved by talking with Hamas.

What is certain that the current action by the Israelis will never result in peace, but will simply make the whole situation much worst.

In the same way as I explain Englishmen who supported Nazi Germany.

That is an outrageous comparison, I expected better from you.

 

[Sasaferrato]

dear god your liberalism is getting worse by the second durruti. shameful.

I wont condemn Hamas at the moment because they are the only body trying to fight back against the israeli invasion. Your woolly liberalism would, if taken up, only lead to far greater deaths of palestinian people as the israeli military would still be massively powerful and would walk unoppossed through the entirety of gaza.

And your nonsensical claim that Hamas cannot change is just that, nonsensical. Every organisation changes - sometimes fundamentally, sometimes not - Hamas changes according to the needs of its base, so sometimes it is highly religious organisation, sometimes a military one, sometimes a 'charitable' one providing schools hospitals etc. That is why it has gained- whether you like it or not - the massive support of the Gazans. And that is why Israel wants to kill every Gazan, because they support, or sympathise with, Hamas. Your 'Hamas are evil' spiel just gic des them more succour, no matter what mealy mouthed words of opposition to Israel you append.

Tell me again, who was dropping rockets on whom? Has it escaped your notice that Israel is REACTING to Hamas?

 

[frogwoman]

Israel broke the truce.

 

[durruti02]

I am totally against Hamas' political-religious doctrines and opposed deeply to any anti-semitism manifested in their ideology.

At the same time I fully support Hamas and any other Palestinian organisation in their defence of Gaza against the Zionist forces' onslaught and believe that as victims of racism and ethnic cleansing they have the right to defend themselves as they see fit.

There. Perhaps you'd like to draw up a form so that everyone can fill it in before contributing to discussion here so you don't get confused in future?

you 'suppport' hamas? yet you identify them as anti semitic? .. the idiocy of leftism .. you are some kind of leninist is eem to remember .. it is one thing to say that people have a right to fight back .. of course they do .. but it is leftist idiocy that says that therefore we 'support' what they do ..

by the way exactly how do you 'support' them .. that alwasy fascinated me when leftists say that! cos of course it is empty and meaningless ..

 

[Sasaferrato]

History is littered with religious-based social-political groups changing their fundamental demands in order to arrive at a peace, there is no reason to believe that can not be achieved by talking with Hamas.

What is certain that the current action by the Israelis will never result in peace, but will simply make the whole situation much worst.



That is an outrageous comparison, I expected better from you.

Outrageous to a woolly minded liberal perhaps.

There are those who stand up for their country and people, and those who don't. As an ex-soldier, I don't have a lot of time for those who don't.

 

[Spion]

Has it escaped your notice that Israel is REACTING to Hamas?

Which in turn is reacting to Israel having ethnically cleansed Palestinians and driven them into Gaza and held them under siege.

If I stole your house and forced you to live in a 1m wire cage in the garden you'd probably throw stuff at me.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Israel broke the truce.

Really? You amaze me. Have you information that no one else has?

How long were Hamas firing rockets for before Israel retaliated?

 

[tarannau]

. My father described Israel as the last nation on earth with the balls to defend themselves vigorously when attacked, as they have been by their neighbours on a number of occasions.

Yep. It takes balls of steel to use your overwhelming military superiority to bomb schools from a safe distance. Real courage that.

 

[durruti02]

History is littered with religious-based social-political groups changing their fundamental demands in order to arrive at a peace, there is no reason to believe that can not be achieved by talking with Hamas.

What is certain that the current action by the Israelis will never result in peace, but will simply make the whole situation much worst.

second part .. yes absolutely .. it is idiocy

first part .. i am not so sure .. can you give me an example?

 

[claphamboy]

Israel broke the truce.

But you're like an Englishmen that supported Nazi Germany, so your comments don't count.

 

[Spion]

you 'suppport' hamas? yet you identify them as anti semitic? .. the idiocy of leftism .. you are some kind of leninist is eem to remember .. it is one thing to say that people have a right to fight back .. of course they do .. but it is leftist idiocy that says that therefore we 'support' what they do ..

by the way exactly how do you 'support' them .. that alwasy fascinated me when leftists say that! cos of course it is empty and meaningless ..

It is entirely practical. I support them in the same way I'd support an Imam who was being attacked outside in his mosque in West Yorks. IE, that I would stand with him against racist violence while not agreeing with everything in his worldview.

I've already said all this tho - is it really that difficult to understand or do you have a really short attention span?

 

[durruti02]

Israel broke the truce.

it all chicken and egg .. seems it went wrong when israel attcked the tunnel which THEY said was to be used for a soldier kidnap .. i think it is pointless getting into that arguement .. to me the issue is how to stop nationalism the cause of the trouble

 

[Sasaferrato]

Which in turn is reacting to Israel having ethnically cleansed Palestinians and driven them into Gaza and held them under siege.

If I stole your house and forced you to live in a 1m wire cage in the garden you'd probably throw stuff at me.

Hamas has to stop firing off rockets before anything positive will happen.

If we had a strong UN, they could occupy Gaza, West Bank and Israel, then divide the land equitably. I don't honestly see anything else working.

This bloody tit for tat killing will drag on and on.

 

[belboid]

Israel did NOT retaliate, they kicked off the fucking whole shebang.

How many people have those 'Hamas' rockets (and lets be honest, we dont actually know how many of those rockets WERE fired by Hamas, and how many by other opponents of Israel) killed? Over the last eleven years? Does it come anywhere close tyo the numbers killed by the Israeli forces over the last eleven days? does it fuck. Israel is the aggressor as everyone but mad zionists knows.

 

[Spion]

There are those who stand up for their country and people, and those who don't.

Nationalist cock. There are also those who stand up for people, for refugees against racist violence

 

[audiotech]

Tell me again, who was dropping rockets on whom? Has it escaped your notice that Israel is REACTING to Hamas?

So, I take it that you believe that this campaign of slaughter of civilians is justified and is somehow going to bring a peaceful resolution to the situation?

 

[In Bloom]

In the same way as I explain Englishmen who supported Nazi Germany.

I don't really see the connection between Winston Churchill and anti-occupation Israelis, sas. Would you care to clarify?