Israel in coordinated missile attacks on Gaza

[frogwoman]

But Hamas has in recent years signalled its willingness to talk, at potential great political cost to itself.

If we're going to talk about fascist death cults, what about the multitude of political parties in Israel that call to "expel the Arab enemy" or the fact that the "rabbis" working for the IDF who claim that genocide would be justified against the Palestinian people?

How many Israelis have had their homes demolished to make way for the homes of Hamas members? How many villages have been destroyed by the Palestinians to make way for parks describing the "ancient ruins" that Mohammed once visited?

I can tell you the answer, it is NONE.

Regardless of what Hamas want, don't you understand that it doesn't matter? Hamas are living in what is basically a cage and they are fighting with both hands tied behind their back whereas the fascists who want to obliterate the memory that Palestinian people ever existed are acting with the full support of the world's most powerful countries.

i could say that i wanted to kill you and drive you in the sea, but if you cut off my arms and legs then what does it matter what I think of you, you are the one with the power.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Different interview, same statement of willingness to discuss a solution based on the 1967 borders, with some stuff anticipating the obvious objection ...

RR: But the two-state theory which the Americans are promoting envisages a Palestinian state next to an Israeli state. Is this also absolutely unacceptable for Hamas?

KM: No. No. Let me say that the Hamas movement will only establish a Palestinian state within the borders of 1967; that includes East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Up till now, Israel does not recognize this right for us. All the Palestinians are demanding is this right. But Israel keeps violating Palestinian rights, and the West is unwilling to force Israel to recognize the Palestinian rights.

Even when President Bush talked about a Palestinian state, it was not clear cut. And Ariel Sharon and recently Ehud Olmert have made a lot of reservations about Bush's proposal. They are rejecting the idea of an Israeli state within its 1967 borders. They want an Israeli state, which includes parts of the West Bank. Actually, President Bush had even agreed to Sharon's proposal for Israel to keep all of Jerusalem. And he agreed with Sharon to choose the right Palestinian leader who would accept all this.

RR: Have I understood you correctly that you would be prepared to negotiate with Israel and accept it within its borders of 1967, before it started its wars of aggression, stealing Palestinian land?

KM: Good, that has been made clear.

RR: In the West, Hamas is generally depicted as being absolutely against talks with Israel and [it's believed] that Hamas only wants to drive the Israeli Jews into the sea.

KM: This is not correct. Killing Jews is not our aim. For centuries we have lived in Palestine peacefully with Jews and Christians of all kinds. We are fighting Israel because it occupies our land and oppresses our people. We are fighting Israel to finish this occupation. We want to live freely on our land just as other nations. We want to have our own country just like other people. But the Zionist movement came from all over the world to occupy our land. And the real owner of the land has been kicked out. This is the root of the problem.

Because of many factors, we now accept to build a Palestinian state within the borders of 1967. But that doesn't mean that we recognize Israel. But we are prepared to make a long-term truce with Israel. Accepting the status of Israel without recognizing it.

RR: But no recognition? Doesn't that mean continued tensions and war?

KM: No. There are plenty of examples where no recognition does not mean war. China and Taiwan, for example, have not recognized each other, but they trade and cooperate with each other. By withholding a formal recognition, we just don't want to give Israel the legitimacy for having taken our land in the first place.

source

 

[ViolentPanda]

sorry but that is just plain wrong .. that slogan is about the end of israel from jordan to med .. why deny that many ( most nowadays?) arabs/ palestinians, for right or wrong,want to see israel destroyed?

Because they don't.
I'd have thought that someone with a modicum of class consciousness, such as yourself, would have a clue that the representations of the power-elites of "the Arab world" don't necessarily represent the grass roots, but obviously not.

.. arafat said it, hamas says, it, qassam said it .. it is one of the chicken and the egg explanations for israel's violent behaviour ..

It's nothing to do with chicken and egg, and much to do with how you read the historical data.

unless you believe this was all planned from start to finish

Try not to be more stupid or offensive than you can help.

 

[agricola]

Via the Grauniad, there is a very presicient article (from a part of the US Army no less!) here.

 

[ViolentPanda]

though previously their suicide bombs have killed hundreds ..

How is this relevant to a comparison between the missile attacks and the IRA's mainland bombing campaign?
The short answer is that it isn't and that your point is utterly irrelevant to what is being discussed.

IF hamas had bunker breakers do you think they would not use them?

"IF"?
If wishes were fishes we'd be knee-deep in cod.
Please stop your irrelevant fantasising and projecting. It's getting boring.

 

[Zachor]

But Hamas has in recent years signalled its willingness to talk, at potential great political cost to itself.

If Hamas have changed why did they fail to abide by agreements not only with Israel but with Egypt as well. Why do they continually call for Israel's destruction and promote appalling hatred inducing 'childrens programmes which are making the situation worse not better?

If we're going to talk about fascist death cults, what about the multitude of political parties in Israel that call to "expel the Arab enemy" or the fact that the "rabbis" working for the IDF who claim that genocide would be justified against the Palestinian people?

I disagree with such actions and groupiings and am quite happy to say that promoting a view that genocide is acceptable is wrong. However, I can understand how a country that has been under unjust attack for 60
years by not only its neighbours but various terrorist groups and fifth columnists would throw up the occasional nut job party as you described. I don't agree with it but like the bnp they are a reaction to political events and are not mainstream.

How many Israelis have had their homes demolished to make way for the homes of Hamas members? How many villages have been destroyed by the Palestinians to make way for parks describing the "ancient ruins" that Mohammed once visited?

I can tell you the answer, it is NONE.

I KNOW that there were injustices that happened at the recreation of the state which is why I've always called for financial and practical compensation to those Arabs who were displaced in the traumatic events of the time. #

Regardless of what Hamas want, don't you understand that it doesn't matter? Hamas are living in what is basically a cage and they are fighting with both hands tied behind their back whereas the fascists who want to obliterate the memory that Palestinian people ever existed are acting with the full support of the world's most powerful countries.

Rubbish. Hamas are in a cage of their own making. They didn't have to lob rockets over the border, they didn't have to deny Red Cross access to Gilad Shalit, the don't have to promote hatred etc etc. I'm not denying that there are extremists within Israel. All countries and groups have extremists. The Palestinian political and terror groups (not the ordianry people I might add) are playing into the hands of said extremists. The best way to beat the groups in Israeli poltiics that WANT a Arab free Israel is to promote those groups that are pro peace and not the pro violence groups like Hamas.

i could say that i wanted to kill you and drive you in the sea, but if you cut off my arms and legs then what does it matter what I think of you, you are the one with the power.

Sadly the Palestinians have been poorly served by their political leaders and various groupings so the main factor in the 'disablement' of the Palestinians as you mentioned above is Palestinian politicians.

 

[TAE]

I felt that the huge step in talking openly to Sinn Fein was a big move forward. However this approached only worked becasue SF were ready to be talked to and were at heart mostly reasonable people with political nous.

People say that now, but if you look at the government's retoric at the time of the troubles I seem to remember much of the same "there is no common ground, they are just terrorists, no way to negotiate" language as we are hearing about Hamas.

 

[Zachor]

People say that now, but if you look at the government's retoric at the time of the troubles I seem to remember much of the same "there is no common ground, they are just terrorists, no way to negotiate" language as we are hearing about Hamas.

There wasn't at the time. It was only when SF saw that the way of peace was the right one that the govt could engage with them openly.

 

[winjer]

There wasn't at the time. It was only when SF saw that the way of peace was the right one that the govt could engage with them openly.

And vice versa.

 

[hipipol]

There wasn't at the time. It was only when SF saw that the way of peace was the right one that the govt could engage with them openly.

It took a long time opf secret and direct engagement for that to comabout, and it wasn't achieved by killing someone every time some demented sub-commander went off on his own - as far as the Isareli Govt is concerned EVERYONE in Gaza is Hamas - the you voted for em, therefor you a a terrorist style of thought
But as for what is planned, I suggest simply looking at Isarels flag

The Star of David between two blue lines

One blue line is the Med
The other the Jordan
What was the land of Canaan before the first invasion, prob round 1350 BC after Aknahtan got his chips, and his close allies in his montheistic faith had to make a run for it and take over a country which owned suzreinity to their old boss. The intention is clear, whcih is basically to force the Palestinians out, or keep them as they were seen in the first state, servants.

 

[TAE]

There wasn't at the time. It was only when SF saw that the way of peace was the right one that the govt could engage with them openly.

In any case it is not as if Hamas could never be a negotiation partner.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

In any case it is not as if Hamas could never be a negotiation partner.

They've been saying 'please negotiate with us regarding a return to the 67 borders' as loud as they can for a couple of years now, but the Israeli propaganda machine seems to have drowned them out pretty effectively.

 

[tangentlama]

December 5, 2008
Israel rains fire on Gaza with phosphorus shells

Israel is believed to be using controversial white phosphorus shells to screen its assault on the heavily populated Gaza Strip yesterday. The weapon, used by British and US forces in Iraq, can cause horrific burns but is not illegal if used as a smokescreen.

As the Israeli army stormed to the edges of Gaza City and the Palestinian death toll topped 500, the tell-tale shells could be seen spreading tentacles of thick white smoke to cover the troops’ advance. “These explosions are fantastic looking, and produce a great deal of smoke that blinds the enemy so that our forces can move in,” said one Israeli security expert. Burning blobs of phosphorus would cause severe injuries to anyone caught beneath them and force would-be snipers or operators of remote-controlled booby traps to take cover. Israel admitted using white phosphorus during its 2006 war with Lebanon.

The use of the weapon in the Gaza Strip, one of the world’s mostly densely population areas, is likely to ignite yet more controversy over Israel’s offensive, in which more than 2,300 Palestinians have been wounded.

The Geneva Treaty of 1980 stipulates that white phosphorus should not be used as a weapon of war in civilian areas, but there is no blanket ban under international law on its use as a smokescreen or for illumination. However, Charles Heyman, a military expert and former major in the British Army, said: “If white phosphorus was deliberately fired at a crowd of people someone would end up in The Hague. White phosphorus is also a terror weapon. The descending blobs of phosphorus will burn when in contact with skin.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5447590.ece

Israeli military denied using phosphorus

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Even then they're not comparable in scale. The IRA's bombs caused far greater problems because they were mostly targeted at Urban centres, and were manually positioned for maximum effect, whereas the Qassams are targeted in the general direction of rural towns, with minimal effect (as evidenced by the extremely low death and injury toll they've taken).

Well then I guess it's no problem, then.

You have to wonder, though: why would Hamas even bother with missiles at all, if they're going to shoot them at the places where they'll do least damage?

I guess it's just another example of how good they are, compared with the evil Israelis.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Certainly there were quite a number of human rights violations, some wrongful imprisonments and arguable state murders in response, but I must admit I don't recall the UK bombing the shit out of the civilians of West Belfast at any time.

They did, ....er.........occupy the place...........

Didn't they?

 

[hipipol]

They did, ....er.........occupy the place...........

Didn't they?

Not exactly
After the South became independant, there was a bit of a prob with the fact that the Protestants in the North didn't want to be ruled by a mainly Catholic Govt in Dublin, and I believe threatened "rivers of blood" if the Brit Govt "sold them out"
So some saw it as occupation, others as simply the legitimate Govt
Personally I'd have made the North Independant in its own right and left them to it!

 

[audiotech]

They did, ....er.........occupy the place...........

Didn't they?

They are still there.

The British military used the counter insurgency tactic of 'psuedo gangs' to shoot and bomb civilian targets in both the North and South of Ireland.

There's a book here about it called Killing for Britain.

 

[TAE]

No doubt many bad things were done by the british security forces, but Northern Ireland was never bombed from the air or starved of supplies.

They did, ....er.........occupy the place...........

Didn't they?

In the sense that the US military 'occupy' Alaska, maybe.

 

[hipipol]

They are still there.

The British military used the counter insurgency tactic of 'psuedo gangs' to shoot and bomb civilian targets in both the North and South of Ireland.

There's a book here about it called Killing for Britain.

Its on Amazon
Must be true then

 

[frogwoman]

the british did terrible things in northern ireland, but i cant remember them ever bulldozing homes during the post war period, or building settlements or controlling most of the northern ireland's water? i can't remember them using weapons of mass destruction on civilian populations - and this is not to excuse anything they did!

i can't remember them putting southern ireland under a massive siege?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

the british did terrible things in northern ireland, but i cant remember them ever bulldozing homes during the post war period, or building settlements or controlling most of the northern ireland's water? i can't remember them using weapons of mass destruction on civilian populations - and this is not to excuse anything they did!

i can't remember them putting southern ireland under a massive siege?

Maybe we can get a member of Hamas and a member of Sinn Fein together in a room, and they can compare notes about whose oppressor was the worst.

 

[hipipol]

Beeb saying 90 dead in last 2 days
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7812286.stm

The slaughter goes on
It is beyond belief that the Israeli Govt thinks that this is justified
They managed to effectively destroy Lebanon two years back, now they go and do it Gaza
They are bloodthirty muderous fucks
I will not buy anything that has been made there,
I will attempt to stop others from doing so
I will write to as many people who may have any kind of influence that I can
I will try to seek out organisations who help the peole of Gaza to see what I can do, however pitiful and small it may be
I will turn up on Saturday and hope I can control my rage
What esle can I do?

 

[frogwoman]

One does not justify the other johnny

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

But Hamas has in recent years signalled its willingness to talk, at potential great political cost to itself.

Article Thirteen:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with.

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

 

[hipipol]

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Learn Hebrew?

Very unbiased, and its from a 1988 document they have since refuted
If you are going to be YEARS out of date JC stick to downing the Belgian lagers and watching reruns of Rambo on TV

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Learn Hebrew?

Very unbiased, and its from a 1988 document they have since refuted

I don't think you're correct about it being refuted. Here's an article from 2006 about it.

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/feb/05/opinion/op-goldhagen5

I'd expect the LA Times to do their homework before doing a story on a charter that's been renounced.

Also, this Palestininan site:

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/index.php

continues to carry the Charter. I assume they wouldn't, if it was no longer in effect.

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

“Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims,” Article 28 of the charter says. This otherwise stunning statement is not surprising, given that Hamas describes Jews and Israel as a cosmic evil. Almost mimicking Nazi textbooks, Hamas contends that Zionism does “not hesitate to take any road, or to pursue all despicable and repulsive means to fulfill its desires.” And what are those desires? “To demolish societies, to destroy values, to wreck answerableness, to totter virtues and to wipe out Islam. It stands behind the diffusion of drugs and toxics of all kinds in order to facilitate its control and expansion.” (Article 28)

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/feb/05/opinion/op-goldhagen5

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Hamas sees Jews as extremely malevolent and also extremely powerful, capable of achieving their desires. In a hallucinatory anti-Semitic passage recalling the most extreme Nazi ideologues, the charter asserts that the Jews amassed wealth that permitted them to “take over control of the world media such as news agencies, the press, publication houses, broadcasting and the like. [They also used this] wealth to stir revolutions in various parts of the globe in order to fulfill their interests and pick the fruits. They stood behind the French and the Communist Revolutions and behind most of the revolutions we hear about here and there.” (Article 22)

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/feb/05/opinion/op-goldhagen5

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Hamas’ charter then describes Jewish power and malevolence as still more sinister: The Jews “used the money to take over control of the Imperialist states and made them colonize many countries in order to exploit the wealth of those countries and spread their corruption therein

As if this wild, anti-Semitic litany, which includes Jews establishing the United Nations as part of their plan for world domination, is insufficient, Hamas declares that “there was no war that broke out anywhere without their fingerprints on it.” (Article 22)

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/feb/05/opinion/op-goldhagen5

 

[nino_savatte]

The Palestinian Jews refused to join the "Jewish Agency" when it was the organisation set up by the British to represent the Zionists.

In 1945/6/7 the Palestinian Jews on Jerusalem City Council sat with the Christians and Moslems, in opposition to the Zionists.

Yep.