Israel in coordinated missile attacks on Gaza

[frogwoman]

so explain the 1 million arab israeli citizens and the handing back of the west abnk and gaza ..

The arab israeli citizens are those who israel failed to expel in 1948.

and what handing back of the west bank? Israel still occupies the west bank mate, and the withdrawal of settlements of the gaza strip was a media offensive to hide the fact that settlements in the west bank were still being built.

i don't think israel wants to commit genocide in the west bank. gaza is an easy target because gaza is poor, impoverished, seething, a lost cause. as crazy as israel's government is, "killing all arabs" is an impossible goal so they are content to make life as miserable for the palestinian people in israel proper and the west bank as possible, in the hope they will give up and leave.

i genuinely dont know what their aims are in gaza but i fear the fucking worst.

 

[durruti02]

Relatively common makes it seem you feel it acceptable, that is entirely reasonable - you spaek as if your self image is of some world weary yet wise one. I hope I am protected from such "wisdom"

I will ask the question - Can you see a situation where an Arab-Israeli could ever become Prime Minister? Even those Arabs with Israeli passports stand little chance of breaking into any position of politcal or economic power.
Given up the West Bank and Gaza? I can only assume you live in some parrallel universe as this is NOT whats happening in the world I live in

You seem to have swallowed the entire Hebrew-NewSpeak dictionary - I cant get my head round the fact that you look at the same world as I yet see it in an entirely arse about face way.

Had we been speaking about the Mau Mau and British troops in Kenya, or rather as it was East Africa Colony, I wonder how you would see it?

fuck off! of course it is NOT acceptabele .. BUT you can NOT defeat something if you misunderstand it ..

i am NOT defending israel in any way and you show your total ignorence of politics that you think i am ..

my point has always been that this is a war of two nationalisms .. and part of a imperialist geo political scheme to divide the middle eastern w/c / peoples .. and yes it is pretty one sided and brutal ( though if the arab nations ever decided to go for it that would be equally one sided and brutal ) ..

and it will be ended by the destruction of the NEED for nationalism .. by bringing change in the ocuntries we all live in .. you have no solution ..

btw tzipi livni has a arab deputy and there is an arab minister currently .. yes VERY few .. but the issue is IS this a totalitarian genocide or just an ethnic cleansing

 

[frogwoman]

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10100.shtml

 

[durruti02]

Eh?

Describe the "handing-back" of the West Bank.

PA .. yes pretty half hearted ( i think only 20% of the land but 50% of the people/) but it happened

 

[derf]

Oh for fuck's sake.

Who gives a shit about the similarities between nazi Germany and Israel.
What the fuck does it matter if it's ethnic cleaning the bog or genocide?

How ever you cut it or play with words it's a total bastard of a thing to do.

The people (Including that twat Bush) that are trying to say Israel has a point really need to get their brain in gear. It's about people being killed using tanks and aircraft while they have sod all way to defend themselves.
It's about 400+ dead and who the hell knows how many injured.
It's about the baby that's just been on TV with half it's head blown off.

Israel is out of order big style and must stop.

Good luck with the demos that are being planned and I do hope you can have a positive effect.

 

[durruti02]

half agree ( with protests and demos) but half disagree ^^.. i have been following this since the early 7ts .. and i want to help stop it ..

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Well, given that Israel gets away with this stuff to a signicant extent, because it has such effective PR, I think challenging that PR as forcefully as possible is important.

That PR coverage is important for the major neo-liberal states backing of Israel.

Such backing would be considerably more problematic if large numbers of voters weren't misinformed by the PR and were instead exerting effective political pressure.

As it is that PR plays a key role in permitting actual protest to be marginalised.

 

[tangentlama]

pa .. Yes pretty half hearted ( i think only 20% of the land but 50% of the people/) but it happened

utter lies. barefaced lies. total misrepresentation. west bank is still occupied.

 

[durruti02]

utter lies.

what is the lie

 

[tangentlama]

what is the lie

that you are well informed 'for years'.
How else can you explain this:

so explain... the handing back of the west abnk

Eh?

Describe the "handing-back" of the West Bank.

And your pathetic reply showed no knowledge of being 'well informed for years'.

it happened

you are now ignored for the troll that you are, and revealed by every long-term ME forum poster to be lying.

 

[durruti02]

that you are well informed 'for years'.
How else can you explain this:


And your pathetic reply showed no knowledge of being 'well informed for years'.

you are now ignored for the troll that you are, and revealed by every long-term ME forum poster to be lying.

you are frankly nuts .. explain what lie i have said about the west bank, that 20% was handed back and thats about 50% of the arab people ( or there abouts ) .. where is THE LIE lol

 

[ViolentPanda]

so you too wish to associate israel with the nazis too?
.. idiot .. 6 million jews murdered, millions of slavs, homosexuals, gyspys, disabled, killed and operated on, their skin made into lampshades, etc etc .. concentration camps, death camps, gas chambers, a whole racist belief system ..

it is absurd and disgusting that you can associate the undeniable disgusting ultra nationalism and ethnic cleansing with nazism/fascism in germany in the 3ts/4ts

Are you illiterate?

I ask because only an illiterate could discern from my post that I'm equating Israel with the Nazis.

Now go learn to read, arschloch.

 

[Spion]

you are frankly nuts .. explain what lie i have said about the west bank, that 20% was handed back and thats about 50% of the arab people ( or there abouts ) .. where is THE LIE lol

Not a lie, but massive ignorance on your part.

The West Bank has not been handed back. It's an Israeli fiction.

Here are the details:

* The West Bank has been divided into areas A, B and C since the mid-90s Oslo agreements.
* Area A – under PA control – 2% of land area of the West Bank
* Area B – PA civil control, Israeli military control – 26% of land area
* Area C – Israeli military control

* Total area of WB under Israeli military control – 98%

* Total land area of the West Bank 5,860km2
* Israel has confiscated or annexed 3,350km2 for exclusive use of the Jewish population.

* 2006 – 440,000 Jewish settlers in 120 official colonies and 100 outposts in the West Bank

* Separate legal systems exist for Jewish settlers and Palestinian residents. Any Jew can immigrate to the West Bank under the law of Return. Palestinians are subject to a separate Entry Into Israel law and Israeli military orders.

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=7723662&postcount=12

Meanwhile, the idea that Gaza was handed back is fucking ludicrous. IT'S UNDER SIEGE, you moron

 

[durruti02]

Are you illiterate?

I ask because only an illiterate could discern from my post that I'm equating Israel with the Nazis.

"I could point you to perhaps a dozen instances (just off the top of my head) where Prime Ministers of the state of Israel voiced opinions that paralleled exactly the rhetoric of the Nazis" violentpanda
whatever

 

[ViolentPanda]

i have thought this thru thoroughtly over several decades sadly and what you say does not stand up

israel has not got more racist or fascist over the the last 40 years judging by it's govts, wars (shatilla was 82 right?) .. peoplee said same then but little has changed indeed since then israel has half heartedly given up gaza and west bank

This little ramble is supposed to indicate how my post doesn't stand up?
Are you taking the piss?
Let's toss an instance your way and see if your own position "stands up":
Was the bombing of Lebanese urban civilian settlements and of Lebanese infrastructure in '06, more or less "racist" or "fascist" than previous incursions? I'd say it was certainly more "racist", because rather than being specifically anti-Palestinian, as so often in the past, it was targetted at any or all "Arabs" that stood between the state of Israel and it's goals.

youalso continue to ignire the logic of why israel does wht it does bbut wrong thread

I've not ignored anything.
A nation-state has rights under international agreements that allow it to defend it's territorial sovereignty. The state of Israel's current actions are outwith any such agreement. The state of Israel has full opportunity to settle it's problems legally. It chooses not to. In doing so it not only endangers it's citizens, but also endangers international Jewry.
You're acting as an apologist for state-sanctioned murder.

 

[ViolentPanda]

"I could point you to perhaps a dozen instances (just off the top of my head) where Prime Ministers of the state of Israel voiced opinions that paralleled exactly the rhetoric of the Nazis" violentpanda
whatever

So rhetoric and reality are equivalent in your world, then?

 

[durruti02]

Not a lie, but massive ignorance on your part.

The West Bank has not been handed back. It's an Israeli fiction.

Here are the details:

* The West Bank has been divided into areas A, B and C since the mid-90s Oslo agreements.
* Area A – under PA control – 2% of land area of the West Bank
* Area B – PA civil control, Israeli military control – 26% of land area
* Area C – Israeli military control

* Total area of WB under Israeli military control – 98%

* Total land area of the West Bank 5,860km2
* Israel has confiscated or annexed 3,350km2 for exclusive use of the Jewish population.

* 2006 – 440,000 Jewish settlers in 120 official colonies and 100 outposts in the West Bank

* Separate legal systems exist for Jewish settlers and Palestinian residents. Any Jew can immigrate to the West Bank under the law of Return. Palestinians are subject to a separate Entry Into Israel law and Israeli military orders.

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=7723662&postcount=12

Meanwhile, the idea that Gaza was handed back is fucking ludicrous. IT'S UNDER SIEGE, you moron

so thank you .. not a lie .. please expalin this to tangent

ok you say area a is only 2% .. i just looked up area A and says 17% and 55% of population .. are you saying this is incorrect?

and yes gaza WAS handed back ( and then bombed) .. and er yes it was under siege particularly after hamas was elected and has yes just been invaded ..

and again again spion this discussion arose out of whether israel is commiting genocide .. i am NOT justifying israels expansionist ultra nationalistic ethnic cleansing. i am simply saying this is nationalism NOT genocide and the trajectory shows this .. i am not sure if you were involved in politics around the time of shatiila massacre etc ( i was) but i remember people saying then that israel wanted to wipe out all palestinians .. it was not true then and it is not true now

p.s. this discussion should not be on this thread which shoudl be for nfrom gaza

 

[nino_savatte]

1)nino i have beeen aware of jewish fascism since lenni brenner so for 25 years?

2)i am doing nothing of the sort .. i am trying to find esxplanation and hence solutions

1. Jolly good.
2. It doesn't look that way from where I'm standing.

 

[durruti02]

This little ramble is supposed to indicate how my post doesn't stand up?
Are you taking the piss?
Let's toss an instance your way and see if your own position "stands up":
Was the bombing of Lebanese urban civilian settlements and of Lebanese infrastructure in '06, more or less "racist" or "fascist" than previous incursions? I'd say it was certainly more "racist", because rather than being specifically anti-Palestinian, as so often in the past, it was targetted at any or all "Arabs" that stood between the state of Israel and it's goals.

I've not ignored anything.
A nation-state has rights under international agreements that allow it to defend it's territorial sovereignty. The state of Israel's current actions are outwith any such agreement. The state of Israel has full opportunity to settle it's problems legally. It chooses not to. In doing so it not only endangers it's citizens, but also endangers international Jewry.
You're acting as an apologist for state-sanctioned murder.

we agree on most things here vp .. the only argument is whether israel is commiting genocide and, if not, whether their political trajectory shows it might do at some stage .. i see not serious differrence in their politics going back over 50 years and indeed some ( minor) improvement .. personally i am for a 'state for all citizens', so really the end of israel as israel .. how and why you can not appreciate this shows to me the narrow mindedness of the uk left

 

[durruti02]

1. Jolly good.
2. It doesn't look that way from where I'm standing.

1) ta
2) fair play that is often the case in politics .. i just see the same rituals year after year, the same moral outrage the same failure to actually change jack shit ..

 

[tangentlama]

So rhetoric and reality are equivalent in your world, then?

His posts are unreadable for non-english first language speaker like me.

 

[frogwoman]

tangent, are foreign news websites blocked in Israel?

 

[tangentlama]

tangent, are foreign news websites blocked in Israel?

not that I know of. i will ask.

 

[mauvais]

Quick question - given various incidents surrounding the legitimacy of the charity Interpal, are they still seen as bona fide? My current understanding is that they have been shown to be clean and likely the most worthwhile cause.

 

[ViolentPanda]

we agree on most things here vp .. the only argument is whether israel is commiting genocide and, if not, whether their political trajectory shows it might do at some stage .. i see not serious differrence in their politics going back over 50 years and indeed some ( minor) improvement .. personally i am for a 'state for all citizens', so really the end of israel as israel ..

The argument is actually about possibilities, for example the possibility that oppressive behaviour, if excused for long enough, becomes naturalised; the possibility that a naturalised behaviour becomes normative, that oppression becomes an everyday practice.

how and why you can not appreciate this shows to me the narrow mindedness of the uk left

A statement which only has any meaning if I am of the "uk left". I am not.

 

[durruti02]

So rhetoric and reality are equivalent in your world, then?

of course not but words are important ..and you wrote

"I could point you to perhaps a dozen instances (just off the top of my head) where Prime Ministers of the state of Israel voiced opinions that paralleled exactly the rhetoric of the Nazis" violentpanda

"paralleled exactly"

what else am i or anyone else to make of words such as these? .. do not blame me i then make an incorrect assumption of your position

.. though btw what israelis have expressed opinion calling for the mass extermination of slavs, disabled, mentally ill, roma, leftwingers, as well as arabs?

no, vp, spion whoever, israel does enough wrong without you or anyone else trying to link it with nazism ..

 

[durruti02]

1)The argument is actually about possibilities, for example the possibility that oppressive behaviour, if excused for long enough, becomes naturalised; the possibility that a naturalised behaviour becomes normative, that oppression becomes an everyday practice.

2)A statement which only has any meaning if I am of the "uk left". I am not.

1) yes true .. it is a real issue in israel but as i say i see no trajectory for the annihilation of palestinians .. society has been split since the thirties and while the oppression continues as i say there is no trajectory that suggests a fundamental changeinto genocide

2) thought you were .. fair play .. leftist? no? or anrcho leftist? whatever not relevent anyway

 

[durruti02]

Quick question - given various incidents surrounding the legitimacy of the charity Interpal, are they still seen as bona fide? My current understanding is that they have been shown to be clean and likely the most worthwhile cause.

i would suggest a new thread on this .. sounds clean btw

 

[Spion]

no, vp, spion whoever, israel does enough wrong without you or anyone else trying to link it with nazism ..

You're the one banging on about it. And you're really boring the shit out of me, tbh

 

[Spion]

and yes gaza WAS handed back

It was not. Israel has never allowed free movement in and out, via air, land or sea.

Get that into your thick skull, please