Israel in coordinated missile attacks on Gaza

[DexterTCN]

Raphael Lemkin yes, I thought I posted the link, but here it is again just in case. Axis Rule in Occupied Europe: Raphael Lemkin

Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups. Genocide is directed against the national group as an entity, and the actions involved are directed against individuals, not in their individual capacity, but as members of the national group.

So...yup...genocide.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

So...yup...genocide.

That's how it looks to me certainly.

 

[laptop]

To a certain extent it is about splitting the palestinians so that Gaza leans to Egypt and the West Bank can be isolated as a client state.

Forgive me if this has come up (I'm reading back from the end) - but does anyone have any intersting sources for the suggstion that the state of Israel initially promoted Hamas, to this end?

I can report, anecdotally, that this is a widespread belief among the West Bank Palestinians I've met (non-Hamas).

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Forgive me if this has come up (I'm reading back from the end) - but does anyone have any intersting sources for the suggstion that the state of Israel initially promoted Hamas, to this end?

I can report, anecdotally, that this is a widespread belief among the West Bank Palestinians I've met (non-Hamas).

You read french right? As far as I'm aware the following article was the source of that story.

http://www.humanite.fr/2001-12-14_International_PALESTINE-Hamas-le-produit-du-Mossad

 

[Bernie Gunther]

English translation:

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Don't you guys ever get tired of sitting here harumphing and agreeing with each other?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Can you not come up with anything better JC?

Take on the facts or the logic say?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Can you not come up with anything better JC?

Take on the facts or the logic say?

Really: what would be the point?

Who should I attempt to use logic on?

 

[tangentlama]

Do I have to repeat: no feed troll ?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Do I have to repeat: no feed troll ?

Need I repeat: blind fascist?

 

[tangentlama]

English translation:

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html

Reading now ...

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I guess a better question might be 'what' do you use the logic on. The facts are pretty hard to dispute.

Israel's government does have clear fascist antecedents. (sources provided)

Israel is committing war crimes (according to the UN human rights lawyers)

Israel's current regime could reasonably be decribed as both genocidal (see definition of genocide by guy who coined the term) and neo-fascist (if we're going to call the BNP neo-fascist, given its antecedents and policies, it's logical to also describe Olmert's regime and any subsequent Likud regime as such)

I do see your problem JC, but half-arsed snide comments won't make it vanish.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I guess a better question might be 'what' do you use the logic on. The facts are pretty hard to dispute.

Israel's government does have clear fascist antecedents. (sources provided)

Israel is committing war crimes (according to the UN human rights lawyers)

Israel's current regime could reasonably be decribed as both genocidal (see definition of genocide by guy who coined the term) and neo-fascist (if we're going to call the BNP neo-fascist, given its antecedents and policies, it's logical to also describe Olmert's regime and any subsequent Likud regime as such)

I do see your problem JC, but half-arsed snide comments won't make it vanish.

After this many years attempting to discuss this, I've come to realize that there is a cadre of fanatics who won't hear anything but what they want to hear.

So, what's left?


Snide comments.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You should be thankful for small mercies. Rachamim had endless energy to argue with you types, but he's been effaced from the board.

So: less to get in the way of your spreading of 'the truth'.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Do you have some credible sources showing that Olmert wasn't in fact a former aide to Begin, who wasn't a neo-fascist terrorist and disciple of actual (Mussolini-endorsed) fascist Jabotinsky?

Do you have some credible sources demonstrating that Israel is not in fact slamming high-powered munitions into one of the most densely populated areas on earth, while simultaneously preventing adequate food, water, power and medical supplies from reaching the people it's bombing the shit out of?

If so, please share ...

 

[laptop]

I dont understand what this latest Israeli savagery is FOR.

My take is that otherwise-puzzling actions of the state of Israel make sense if you consider them as attempts to prevent a solution.

Consider the solutions on the table:

• Two-state:
  • evacuation of the settlements in the West Bank, with massive compensation;
  • confrontation with the bonkers settlers; note:
    • settlers fighting the armed forces of the state of Israel in Hebron;
    • settlers building their own amateur rockets to attack Palestinians
  • fair allocation of water under international law;
  • ...keep going...
• One-state:
  • the end of Israel as a Jewish state
  • probably, on the way, a prolonged anti-Apartheid struggle for equal rights within the state
• Ten-million-state

Even without going into the individual career implications for Israeli politicians who know nothing other than war, it's clearly in their interest that conflict continues indefinitely (but, they hope, "manageably" from the point of view of a Jewish resident of Tel Aviv).

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Do you have some credible sources showing that Olmert wasn't in fact a former aide to Begin, who wasn't a neo-fascist terrorist and disciple of actual (Mussolini-endorsed) fascist Jabotinsky?

Do you have some credible sources demonstrating that Israel is not in fact slamming high-powered munitions into one of the most densely populated areas on earth, while simultaneously preventing adequate food, water, power and medical supplies from reaching the people it's bombing the shit out of?

If so, please share ...

But no matter what I say, all you hear is the wind blowing.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

You should be thankful for small mercies. Rachamim had endless energy to argue with you types, but he's been effaced from the board.

So: less to get in the way of your spreading of 'the truth'.

I would say that rach only supports the case I'm arguing, that the far-right headcases running Israel are neo-fascists with genocidal tendencies who are routinely committing war crimes.

Rach was ex-Betar, I have no doubt then that he was quite serious when he described himself as a fascist.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I think what they're doing was explained painfully clearly a long time ago.

Thus we conclude that we cannot promise anything to the Arabs of the Land of Israel or the Arab countries. Their voluntary agreement is out of the question. Hence those who hold that an agreement with the natives is an essential condition for Zionism can now say “no” and depart from Zionism. Zionist colonization, even the most restricted, must either be terminated or carried out in defiance of the will of the native population. This colonization can, therefore, continue and develop only under the protection of a force independent of the local population – an iron wall which the native population cannot break through. This is, in toto, our policy towards the Arabs. To formulate it any other way would only be hypocrisy.

<snipped: digression about Balfour>

Two brief remarks: In the first place, if anyone objects that this point of view is immoral, I answer: It is not true; either Zionism is moral and just or it is immoral and unjust. But that is a question that we should have settled before we became Zionists. Actually we have settled that question, and in the affirmative.

We hold that Zionism is moral and just. And since it is moral and just, justice must be done, no matter whether Joseph or Simon or Ivan or Achmet agree with it or not.

There is no other morality.

All this does not mean that any kind of agreement is impossible, only a voluntary agreement is impossible. As long as there is a spark of hope that they can get rid of us, they will not sell these hopes, not for any kind of sweet words or tasty morsels, because they are not a rabble but a nation, perhaps somewhat tattered, but still living. A living people makes such enormous concessions on such fateful questions only when there is no hope left. Only when not a single breach is visible in the iron wall, only then do extreme groups lose their sway, and influence transfers to moderate groups. Only then would these moderate groups come to us with proposals for mutual concessions. And only then will moderates offer suggestions for compromise on practical questions like a guarantee against expulsion, or equality and national autonomy.

I am optimistic that they will indeed be granted satisfactory assurances and that both peoples, like good neighbors, can then live in peace. But the only path to such an agreement is the iron wall, that is to say the strengthening in Palestine of a government without any kind of Arab influence, that is to say one against which the Arabs will fight. In other words, for us the only path to an agreement in the future is an absolute refusal of any attempts at an agreement now.

The Iron Wall: Jabotinsky

 

[tangentlama]

I would say that rach only supports the case I'm arguing, that the far-right headcases running Israel are neo-fascists with genocidal tendencies who are routinely committing war crimes.

Rach was ex-Betar, I have no doubt then that he was quite serious when he described himself as a fascist.

Rach was ex-Kach. He was recruited as a child around age 7 in New York State and attended a military training camp. Besides Kahane, he was also influenced by Kook (Bergson).

 

[denniseagle]

Zachor: vermin. If I had access to a katyusha rocket launcher and details of his home address I'd bombard his place in a concentrated fashion until I got my target.

Which would make you what precisely?
KATYUSHKA Was the name given to a multiple projectile launch system used by the Russians during WW2, the other combatants had their own versions but just like Hoover became the generic term for vacuum cleaners so Katyushka (Katherine in Russian) is used for such launch systems.
It was primarily an area bombardment system.
Point and shoot with the hope of hitting something/anything related to the Wehrmacht.
Can you see the connection?

God there are some cretins about on here.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I would say that rach only supports the case I'm arguing, that the far-right headcases running Israel are neo-fascists with genocidal tendencies who are routinely committing war crimes.

Rach was ex-Betar, I have no doubt then that he was quite serious when he described himself as a fascist.

If you keep at it, you can have Rach painted as the Devil.

 

[ViolentPanda]

With respect, Zionism and Judaism are inextricably linked. In much the same way Al-Qaeda and Islam are. They can both get fucked as far as I'm concerned. If you took the religious aspect out of those movements (Al-Q and Zionism) they wouldn't exist. It's PC bullshit to ignore that fact.

Please substantiate your claim, and do make sure it doesn't refer to settlers, who aren't Zionists, but rather religious nutters who fit in with nationalist-Zionist expansion plans.
I'm not approaching ths, you understand, from a position of political correctness, but from a position of actually knowing about Zionism and the history of Zionism in it's many forms.

 

[laptop]

English translation:

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html

Huge thanks.

Not quite a smoking gun, but consistent with the prevent-a-solution thesis.

In 1984, Ahmed Yassin was arrested and condemned to twelve years in prison, after the discovery of a hidden arms cache. But one year later, he was set free and resumed his activities. And when the Intifada (‘uprising’) began, in October 1987, which took the Islamists by surprise, Sheik Yassin responded by creating the Hamas (The Islamic Resistance Movement): "God is our beginning, the prophet our model, the Koran our constitution", proclaims article 7 of the charter of the organization.

Ah, yes. The nonviolent First Intifada is associated with Beit Sahour, near Bethlehem - majority Christian tradition and a focus of the communist Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.

If you were Mossad, what would you do to counter that? Ooops...

 

[ViolentPanda]

You're missing a third group. Atheists. That's all I consider myself.

It's undeniable religion is the key to zionism. Where do you think the term 'the promised land' came from??



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

They're inseparable, like it or not.

Wow, a wiki page that (to paraphrase) tells us that because Jews may be followers of Judaism, that the appeals to religious and historical "verities" that some Zionists have made means Judaism and Zionism are "inseparable".

I'm convinced.

No, honestly.

 

[laptop]

settlers, who aren't Zionists, but rather religious nutters who fit in with nationalist-Zionist expansion plans.

Not quite right.

There are broadly two groups of settlers:

• Apolitical commuters taking advantage of heavily-subsidised housing - many of them Russian these days;
• Religious nutters, characteristically American gun nuts.

The latter start the settlements for the former.

They are Zionist inasmuch as their goals include expansion of Jewish-controlled territory in the region into what they define as a "land without people" simply because they define Palestinians as unpeople.

Of course, they have other motivations - including wandering around with automatic weapons slung over their t-shirts and playing Wild West Frontier, plotting genocide against the Native People in time-honoured American fashion (as well as some apocalyptic religious bullshit). I suspect the bullshit is for many largely a mystification of the Frontier shit.

 

[ViolentPanda]

israel = nazis ..

spion you really have no idea

I could point you to perhaps a dozen instances (just off the top of my head) where Prime Ministers of the state of Israel voiced opinions that paralleled exactly the rhetoric of the Nazis. Take note that I'm not referring to "the Holocaust", but to ghetto-isation, to removal and denial of rights, to making territories "free" of inferior races, to the need for what the Nazis termed "lebensraum".

perhaps, durruti, it's you who have no idea.

 

[denniseagle]

Gaza -Densly populated

Whilst not belittling in any way the horrific numbers of those killed in Gaza, it does beg the question why more haven't died.

In an 'all out war' scenario casuality numbers would become irrelevant surely?
Should Israel decide to to 'take the gloves off'so to speak can anyone even imagine the casualties?

Imagine if Israel started to 'carpet bomb' Gaza.............just as the Allies did during WW2 to numerous German cities.

The numbers killed so far are miniscule in reality considering what weapons and tactics the IDF are capable of utilising.

And to be quite honest should they decide to go 'all out' who precisely is going to stop them?
Once the deed is done it can never be prevented.

And for those who cry disproportionality in casualities, the simple answer is capability.
Perhaps the inability of groups such as Hamas or Hezbollah to obtain 'better' weapons needs questioning?
Perhaps the 'Arab' world has to answer why it maintains the status quo where the question of Palestinian refugees are concerned?

 

[ViolentPanda]

israel does not have a deep fundamentalist tenet for any genocide against arabs as did the nazis against jews ( as sadly many hamas and similar do )

Have you any idea how thoroughly your post misses the point?

1) If you're going to equate now with then, you should be comparing either the state of Israel's current government with the Nazis, or the people of Israel with the people of Germany.

2) The people of pre-WW2 Germany (as I've said on here before, and been bleated at before because of it) weren't any more anti-Semitic than any other central Europeans of the time. Nazism is what ramped up an unpleasant social prejudice into mass murder.

3) That being so, isn't it at least possible that the government of the state of Israel might try to ramp up an unpleasant social prejudice against Palestinians into, if not mass murder, at least a contempt so deep that some Israelis might stand by while evil was done? Don't you think that at least part of the Zionist propaganda offensive has been aimed at de-humanising Gazans, and therefore, while not legitimating it, excusing their slaughter?

 

[elbows]

In an 'all out war' scenario casuality numbers would become irrelevant surely?
Should Israel decide to to 'take the gloves off'so to speak can anyone even imagine the casualties?

Imagine if Israel started to 'carpet bomb' Gaza.............just as the Allies did during WW2 to numerous German cities.

In a war where the there was at real risk of total defeat, the enemies civilian casualty numbers might go out the window. That doesnt happen too often.

Israel, like any other power, will make calculations about what it can get away with. They are not utterly immune to international opinion, they have quite a lot of room to operate but carpet bombing would likely cost them dear.