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Israel in coordinated missile attacks on Gaza

what israel does is specific ethnic cleasning ..
Exactly. It's good you admit that. Now, what is the most important thing to do when people are being ethnically cleansed?

Witter on about how terrible the leadership of the people being besieged and attacked is and how awful it is they respond with crude weapons?
Or be unequivocally against the siege and killing of the people being attacked?

Where are your morals exactly?
 
Exactly. It's good you admit that. Now, what is the most important thing to do when people are being ethnically cleansed?

Witter on about how terrible the leadership of the people being besieged and attacked is and how awful it is they respond with crude weapons?
Or be unequivocally against the siege and killing of the people being attacked?

Where are your morals exactly?
i want a fucking solution .. not just moral outrage .. it matters HOW we got to here to understnd HOW we can solve it .. p.s. i have been on plenty of pro palestine demos .. i did not go today as i am unwell AND i can not stand marching beside holocaust deniers and anti semites
 
A distortion I think you'll find

The "Final Solution" came about after attempts at getting anyone else to take the Jewish population the Nazi were keen simply to get rid of, ie out of the lands they had invaded - once the war was actually on only then did they come up with the idea of killing all Jews - but then they also wanted all Gypies dead too but they dont have a country and neither do they own any banks or film studios so tend to be somewhat overlooked.
you've not read Mein Kampf then?
 
i want a fucking solution .. not just moral outrage
That's all you seem provide

You seem to lack the basic moral standpoint which any socialist or leftist or anarchist should have, which is to be against the siege and the attack on Gaza.
 
That's all you seem provide

You seem to lack the basic moral standpoint which any socialist or leftist or anarchist should have, which is to be against the siege and the attack on Gaza.
doh? of course i am against the seige and attack but if we wish to see it stopped we need to understand why it exists .. i think many do not do that ... ireally think most who are aganist the sioege and attack really do not understand israel or what has happened to jewish people over the centuries .. for example this nonsense about a genocide against palestinians yet 1.5 million arabs are israeli citizens .. hardly genocide
 
Originally Posted by Froggy

I dont understand what this latest Israeli savagery is FOR. They seem to want to attempt to destroy not only hamas but the palestinian identity itself, by attacking symbols of palestinian life and culture - schools, universities, etc. What is in gaza that Israel might want? Why are they stopping food and medicine from reaching innocent people? Why are they bombing smuggling tunnels from Egypt - the palestinians' only escape and means of supply?

This isn't about Hamas, is it?

this article in today's Guardian maybe has an angle on this.

It took an outsider to capture the depth of the crisis. "This terrible massacre would not have happened if the Palestinian people were united behind one leadership, speaking in one voice," Saudi Arabia's foreign minister, Prince Saud al-Faisal, said on Wednesday.

These concerns are reflected among the public, and this fragmentation between the two territories may account for the relatively subdued protests. There were demonstrations in Hebron, Ramallah and Nablus at the start of the bombing, but they have not been widely repeated. More demonstrations were held by Arab-Israelis in Israel, particularly in Haifa, Jaffa and Nazareth. The gathering in Ramallah yesterday was the largest of the week. There was also some sporadic stone throwing against Israeli police in east Jerusalem after lunchtime prayers yesterday.

To a certain extent it is about splitting the palestinians so that Gaza leans to Egypt and the West Bank can be isolated as a client state.
 
i see what you are saying but no .. what you say is too vague .. genocide in terms of the jews meant to wipe them off the globe on a reason they were evil .. what israel does is specific ethnic cleasning .. and remember there are many many arabs in israel as citizens

I think it's fairly reasonable to take the word of the guy who coined the term regarding what 'genocide' is meant to mean.

Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups. Genocide is directed against the national group as an entity, and the actions involved are directed against individuals, not in their individual capacity, but as members of the national group.

The following illustration will suffice. The confiscation of property of nationals of an occupied area on the ground that they have left the country may be considered simply as a deprivation of their individual property rights. However, if the confiscations are ordered against individuals solely because they are Poles, Jews, or Czechs, then the same confiscations tend in effect to weaken the national entities of which those persons are members.

Genocide has two phases: one, destruction of the national pattern of the oppressed group; the other, the imposition of the national pattern of the oppressor. This imposition, in turn, may be made upon the oppressed population which is allowed to remain or upon the territory alone, after removal of the population and the colonization by the oppressor's own nationals.
Axis Rule in Occupied Europe: Raphael Lemkin
 
I think it's fairly reasonable to take the word of the guy who coined the term regarding what 'genocide' is meant to mean.

Axis Rule in Occupied Europe: Raphael Lemkin
"Genocide is directed against the national group as an entity"


ok and there are 1.5 million israeli arabs with (arguable) democratic rights and all ..

so genocide is an entirely inappropraite term and it's use is dangerously wrong in these discussions ..

now IF, israel WAS a genocidal nation, that wished to wipe out ALL arabs in palestine and beyond, THEN it MUST be DESTROYED .. logically

and this IS of course the line of hamas and others

it is very very wrong
 
Its collective punishment. You make life difficult for the general population in a number of different ways, from road blocks to economic blockades, destruction of infrastructure, other sanctions, other violent methods. You make it very clear to the population that the horrors are all the fault of the evil group - as soon as people stop supporting them, the punishment will end.
Exactly - and collective punishment is against international law AFAIK.
 
Why does Israel go to such lengths to obliterate any evidence of palestinian life on the areas it ethnically cleansed in 1948, to the laughable extent of turning palestinian villages into "biblical ruins" and constructing whackjob religious theme parks around them so that everyone can admire the "ancient past"? How does this help Israel defend itself, unless you mean defend itself from its own conscience, by hiding the evidence of its crimes?
 
Why does Israel go to such lengths to obliterate any evidence of palestinian life on the areas it ethnically cleansed in 1948, to the laughable extent of turning palestinian villages into "biblical ruins" and constructing whackjob religious theme parks around them so that everyone can admire the "ancient past"? How does this help Israel defend itself, unless you mean defend itself from its own conscience, by hiding the evidence of its crimes?
i think your last sentance is on the nail ... all nationalism does this .. invents history as well as language .. look at the balkans ..
 
"Genocide is directed against the national group as an entity"


ok and there are 1.5 million israeli arabs with (arguable) democratic rights and all ..

so genocide is an entirely inappropraite term and it's use is dangerously wrong in these discussions ..

now IF, israel WAS a genocidal nation, that wished to wipe out ALL arabs in palestine and beyond, THEN it MUST be DESTROYED .. logically

and this IS of course the line of hamas and others

it is very very wrong

Genocide doesn't necessarily mean destroying every single member of group in the world. I don't think the govt of Rwanda had any intention of marching into Burundi and killing all Tutsis and tracking down Tutsis everwhere to kill them - that doesn't mean it wasn't genocide.

and there's a difference between thinking Israel is a "genocidal nation that wants to kill all arabs" and thinking that it is pursuing policies that, if they are not stopped, will lead - and are leanding - to a genocidal campaign. Israeli politicians routinely use dehumanising rhetoric like referring to palestinians as "cockcroaches" and this is considered entirely normal. like i said genocide doesn't occur overnight but i do think that policies - and more worryingly, societal trends - such as those of israel are frequently the precursor to genocide and have been in many situations.

If a population is routinely regarded as subhuman or a "cancer in the body of the nation" and described as such by mainstream media, talked about like that by politicians, and massacres and pogroms are perpetrated against them, there is discrimination in goods and services, there is segregation, there is physical separation, the conditions for genocide become created and genocide will become more and more likely the more that this goes and the persecutions intensify.
 
I'm proud of the demos every place. :)

We shame our political leaders. Even the media is now finding it difficult to avoid the realities.

Everyone should bale out on the dollar. This shit would stop tomorrow.
 
"Genocide is directed against the national group as an entity"




now IF, israel WAS a genocidal nation, that wished to wipe out ALL arabs in palestine and beyond, THEN it MUST be DESTROYED .. logically

and this IS of course the line of hamas and others

it is very very wrong


It is the stated aim of Hamas that they wish to see the end of the state of Israel; I was unaware however that Hamas claimed that Israel wanted the destruction of all arabs. I would appreciate some sources please.
 
A distortion I think you'll find

The "Final Solution" came about after attempts at getting anyone else to take the Jewish population the Nazi were keen simply to get rid of, ie out of the lands they had invaded - once the war was actually on only then did they come up with the idea of killing all Jews - but then they also wanted all Gypies dead too but they dont have a country and neither do they own any banks or film studios so tend to be somewhat overlooked.

Thats pretty much totally wrong. They probably always intended to kill off all the the Jews, gypsies, gays, communists, socialists and more than a few others that they could get their hands on by invading, not export them.
 
"Genocide is directed against the national group as an entity"


ok and there are 1.5 million israeli arabs with (arguable) democratic rights and all ..

so genocide is an entirely inappropraite term and it's use is dangerously wrong in these discussions ..

now IF, israel WAS a genocidal nation, that wished to wipe out ALL arabs in palestine and beyond, THEN it MUST be DESTROYED .. logically

and this IS of course the line of hamas and others

it is very very wrong

So basically, you didn't bother reading what the guy who coined the term says it means.

Fine ... why bother ...

After all, it might conflict with the views you've already formed and that would be terrible.
 
What was the link to the guy who coined the term 'genocide' say, Bernie? (link will be fine). It' was coined as a neologisim by Raphael Lemkin, wasn't it?
 
So, we have an Israeli government with undeniable fascist antecedents, and enough points of resemblance in addition to those antecedents that a reasonable person might describe it as neo-fascist. It's carrying forward a war whose focus is clearly Palestinian civilians, a war which involves undeniable war-crimes according to international law and which in several important points meets the criteria for genocide laid down by the chap who coined the term in the first place.

Why is this being tolerated by our governments? Doesn't it seem like something somewhere has gone badly wrong with our so-called civilised world?
 
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