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Israel in coordinated missile attacks on Gaza

All these discussions about it not being genocide miss the point as well.

Something can "not be genocide" and be evil, horrific, a crime against humanity. Darfur, for example, or bosnia.

It is also unquestionable that Israel has carried out policies of ethnic cleansing, both in the Nakba and since. Ethnic cleansing is not genocide but it can easily mutate into an extermination campaign.

I dont understand what this latest Israeli savagery is FOR. They seem to want to attempt to destroy not only hamas but the palestinian identity itself, by attacking symbols of palestinian life and culture - schools, universities, etc. What is in gaza that Israel might want? Why are they stopping food and medicine from reaching innocent people? Why are they bombing smuggling tunnels from Egypt - the palestinians' only escape and means of supply?

This isn't about Hamas, is it?
 
I don't give a toss whether people are thinking I talk nonsence. All I know is I'd much rather live under Israeli rule than a bunch of barking mad clerical fascists.

I only hope the Israelis sort out the rockets before I go there later in the year.
ffs and so would all of us .. that is us who are not palestinians in refugee camps in jordan and lebanon and gaza and eygpt etc .. you never bother to ask yourself WHY the palestinians turned to what you rightly call clerical fascists and hence will never actually find the answer to the problem .. mayeb gaza will calm down but the west bank will be hamas soon and hez' has been quiet for a while .. while there is no justice there will be no peace .. fool

eta and actually 95% of palestinians would prefer to be in israel now than in the camps
 
Just because you're the only one who takes the taglines seriously. :rolleyes:

I'm not actually expecting you to mind the tram by the way. :D

I assume that some are serious and some are not. Hence the question.

For example, I am for industry and decency. But I'll bear in mind that you are indifferent regarding people's behaviour with the tram.
 
Hang on a mo. You don't have to equate israel with the nazis (and I doubt few would) to think there's a huge irony in a state that claims to honour the victims of the Warsaw ghetto fight using the same siege tactics against Gaza. Using the same principle of you kill one of us and we kill a hundred of you. This isn't the holocaust but anyone with an ounce of common can see that zionism is based on ethnic cleansing, from gaza to south lebanon.
partly agree but it is very differrent .. lots of countries use ethnic cleansing .. few do genocide they are very differrent
 
All these discussions about it not being genocide miss the point as well.

Something can "not be genocide" and be evil, horrific, a crime against humanity. Darfur, for example, or bosnia.

It is also unquestionable that Israel has carried out policies of ethnic cleansing, both in the Nakba and since. Ethnic cleansing is not genocide but it can easily mutate into an extermination campaign.

I dont understand what this latest Israeli savagery is FOR. They seem to want to attempt to destroy not only hamas but the palestinian identity itself, by attacking symbols of palestinian life and culture - schools, universities, etc. What is in gaza that Israel might want? Why are they stopping food and medicine from reaching innocent people? Why are they bombing smuggling tunnels from Egypt - the palestinians' only escape and means of supply?

This isn't about Hamas, is it?
surely this is what people do when they can think of nothing else .. i don't think it is rational .. look at what nonsense zachor wrote .. that an invasion will allow humanistarian aid .. i guess that is the thinking ..
 
I dont understand what this latest Israeli savagery is FOR. They seem to want to attempt to destroy not only hamas but the palestinian identity itself, by attacking symbols of palestinian life and culture - schools, universities, etc. What is in gaza that Israel might want? Why are they stopping food and medicine from reaching innocent people? Why are they bombing smuggling tunnels from Egypt - the palestinians' only escape and means of supply?

This isn't about Hamas, is it?

It probably is about Hamas. I think its standard military doctrine for dealing with areas that are under rebel control, or where the population have a lot of sympathy for dissident groups, or in this case where the people have voted for the wrong people to lead them.

Its collective punishment. You make life difficult for the general population in a number of different ways, from road blocks to economic blockades, destruction of infrastructure, other sanctions, other violent methods. You make it very clear to the population that the horrors are all the fault of the evil group - as soon as people stop supporting them, the punishment will end.

Variations of this template can be seen in many conflicts to lesser or greater extent. It doesnt work every time, but obviously causes misery every time. It probably contravenes some mighty moral principles on how conflict should be fought, so nations generally pretend they are not trying to mess with the general population, just the evil group.
 
Variations of this template can be seen in many conflicts to lesser or greater extent.

Oh and 'Shock and Awe' is a modern variant that tries to achieve similar objectives but in a short space of time, using more bombs & missiles. Admittedly it tends to be aimed more towards the moral of troops and the nations elite, to get them to stop fighting and maybe turn on their own leader (eg what they hoped for in Iraq), but one way to destroy their morale is to destroy things in general, including civilian infrastructure and morale. Again I doubt they are allowed to admit to deliberately targeting civilian things like water treatment and power gen, but they clearly do sometimes.

Its had mixed results. The invasion of Iraq lated slightly longer than hoped because Shock & Awe didnt work as well as was envisaged there, and if it was the thinking behind Israels bombing of Lebanon that didnt exactly go well either. But the nato bombing of Serbia might be shock & awe, and I guess that was seen as a success in the end?
 
israel does not have a deep fundamentalist tenet for any genocide against arabs

Yes it does. Senior Israeli politicians, writers and historians regularly advocate the ethnic cleansing of the occupied territories - what they euphamistically refer to as the "transfer".
 
What happens next for Israel if after their ground offensive ends and the rocket attacks continue? Does anyone really think this conflict is going to end the attacks from Gaza?
 
What happens next for Israel if after their ground offensive ends and the rocket attacks continue? Does anyone really think this conflict is going to end the attacks from Gaza?

They'll likely be a renewed cycle of suicide bombings and Israeli incursions into the occupied territories - the bodies on both sides will pile up. The Israeli elite don't give a fuck about protecting their civilians - they'd rather keep their war economy afloat and their political power intact.
 
israel does not have a deep fundamentalist tenet for any genocide against arabs
Dead wrong. These latest events are a continuation of Zionist ideas of ethnically cleansing Palestinians that have existed since well before Israel's foundation

“If we do not succeed in removing the Arabs from our midst. . . and transferring them to the Arab area – it will not be achievable easily (and perhaps at all) after the [Jewish] state is established . . . This thing must be done now – and the first step – perhaps the crucial [step] – is conditioning ourselves for its implementation.’ (Ben Gurion – Diary 12 July 1937)

“If the Arabs leave it, the country will become wide and spacious for us . . . The only solution is a land of Israel, at least a western land of Israel, without Arabs. There is no room here for compromises . . . There is no way but to transfer all the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to transfer them all, save perhaps for Bethlehem, Nazareth and old Jerusalem. Not one village must be left, not one tribe.” 20 Dec 1940. Weitz (leading member of the JA’s Transfer Committee 1937-38), My diary, II, 181
 
Yes it does. Senior Israeli politicians, writers and historians regularly advocate the ethnic cleansing of the occupied territories - what they euphamistically refer to as the "transfer".

no no no what you refer to is ethnic cleansing ..

genocide is something of an entirely differrent order .. the nazis wnated to destroy ALL jewry from europe and beyond as they belived jews were evil ..

israel just wants to be selfish and have palestine for itself and a small number of arabs .. wrong but of an entirely differrent order or moral and magnitude
 
Dead wrong. These latest events are a continuation of Zionist ideas of ethnically cleansing Palestinians that have existed since well before Israel's foundation

“If we do not succeed in removing the Arabs from our midst. . . and transferring them to the Arab area – it will not be achievable easily (and perhaps at all) after the [Jewish] state is established . . . This thing must be done now – and the first step – perhaps the crucial [step] – is conditioning ourselves for its implementation.’ (Ben Gurion – Diary 12 July 1937)

“If the Arabs leave it, the country will become wide and spacious for us . . . The only solution is a land of Israel, at least a western land of Israel, without Arabs. There is no room here for compromises . . . There is no way but to transfer all the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to transfer them all, save perhaps for Bethlehem, Nazareth and old Jerusalem. Not one village must be left, not one tribe.” 20 Dec 1940. Weitz (leading member of the JA’s Transfer Committee 1937-38), My diary, II, 181

see above .. you are totally wrong .. what you describe is simply ethnic cleansing .. do you really not understand the nazi project in europe?? it was the attempted annhilation of all jews for all of europe and beyond ..

there IS NO similar logic in israeli behaviour

they simply are violently creating a nation for them to command as so many other nations have done before
 
no no no what you refer to is ethnic cleansing ..

genocide is something of an entirely differrent order .. the nazis wnated to destroy ALL jewry from europe and beyond as they belived jews were evil ..

israel just wants to be selfish and have palestine for itself and a small number of arabs .. wrong but of an entirely differrent order or moral and magnitude

If you define genocide so narrowly as to mean only the physical annihilation of a people then that makes sense. I think that's rather too restrictive however. One definition I just found via google is "the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group". If the "transfer" advocates had their program implemented I think it's arguable that this would constitute a form of genocide.
 
If you define genocide so narrowly as to mean only the physical annihilation of a people then that makes sense. I think that's rather too restrictive however. One definition I just found via google is "the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group". If the "transfer" advocates had their program implemented I think it's arguable that this would constitute a form of genocide.
i see what you are saying but no .. what you say is too vague .. genocide in terms of the jews meant to wipe them off the globe on a reason they were evil .. what israel does is specific ethnic cleasning .. and remember there are many many arabs in israel as citizens
 
Durrutti. You seem to think that Israel is a monolithic bloc. You seem to think that the act and the historical knowledge of the שואה (Shoah) gives Israel's Generals and Politicians a right to treat Palestinians today in this catastrophic way.

You should read up on some of the history of this conflict before you make more mistaken assessments
The Iraq war in 1991 put the U.S. in a position to implement its own unilateral settlement, ratified in the Oslo Agreements. The latest phase, Oslo II, grants Israel control of far more of the territories than it demanded in the Allon Plan, and affirms its legal rights throughout the territories, thus rescinding UN 242 and other relevant UN Resolutions and official declarations. A greatly expanded Jerusalem region is effectively incorporated within Israel, which also keeps control of most of West Bank water resources. Settlement and construction programs implementing these plans were extended, relying on U.S. subsidies. During the first three years of the Rabin-Peres Labor government, to July 1995, the number of settlers increased by 30% (not counting Greater Jerusalem). Government expenditures and inducements for new settlers continue after Oslo II. The intended goal, it appears, is to ensure Israel's control of the territories, with scattered cantons of local Palestinian administration. If these are called a "Palestinian state," the result will resemble South Africa's Bantustan policy, but not quite. The Bantustans were subsidized by South Africa, while the U.S.-Israeli plan is to leave to the Palestinian cantons the task of dealing with the bitter effects of the military occupation, which barred any possibility of economic development.

Meanwhile Israeli attacks on Lebanon continued, killing many civilians. In 1993, these attacks elicited retaliation by Hizbollah, to which Israel responded by invading Lebanon. An agreement was reached to restrict military actions by either side to Israel's "security zone" in Lebanon. Israel has ignored the agreement, attacking elsewhere at will. Thus, the day that Prime Minister Shimon Peres took office after the Rabin assassination in November 1995, the New York Times reported approvingly that Israeli warplanes attacked targets near Beirut, thus demonstrating that Peres would maintain Rabin's hard line. So matters continued, occasionally receiving brief notice, as on March 21 1996, when Israel attacked Muslim villages north of the "security zone" in retaliation for attacks on its occupying army. The standard story in U.S. commentary is that "the accord had largely held until [April 1996], when Hezbollah resumed its attacks" (New York Times). The slightest attention to facts suffices to refute the doctrine, which nevertheless reigns unchallenged.

The Israeli offensive of April 1996, much like those of earlier years, has the openly expressed intent of punishing the civilian population so that the government of Lebanon will be compelled to accept U.S. - Israeli demands. It is this "rational prospect" that has always motivated Israel's attacks on civilian populations, Israeli diplomat Abba Eban explained years ago.

The short-term goal today, Washington announced, is to modify the 1993 agreement to require that all actions against the Israeli occupying forces cease, and that Hizbollah disarm; Lebanon rejected the proposal, insisting on the right of resistance to foreign occupation that was endorsed by the UN in 1987 by a vote of 153-2 (U.S. and Israel opposed, Honduras alone abstaining), still unreported in the U.S. Washington's long-term goal is to integrate Lebanon and Syria into the Middle East system based on U.S. client states. Palestinians in the occupied territories are to be reduced to a minor annoyance, with local administration under general Israeli control. The refugees are to be forgotten.

It is well to remember that Israel's actions, however one assesses them, are conducted with virtual impunity. As Washington's leading client state, Israel inherits the right to do as it chooses. A dramatic illustration of this right, quite relevant to Lebanon, has just been offered in the home country. On April 19, there was much anguished commentary on the car bombing at Oklahoma City a year earlier, when middle America "looked like Beirut," headlines lamented.

Beirut, of course, had looked like Beirut long before; for example, just 10 years before, when the worst terrorist act of the period was perpetrated in Beirut, a car bombing timed to cause maximum civilian casualties, virtually duplicated at Oklahoma City. The facts are well known, but unmentionable. That act of terror was carried out by the CIA, a fact that suffices to remove the incident from history along with much else that suffers the same defect. The implications are of no slight significance in world affairs.
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/19960423.htm
 
Durrutti. You seem to think that Israel is a monolithic bloc. You seem to think that the act and the historical knowledge of the שואה (Shoah) gives Israel's Generals and Politicians a right to treat Palestinians today in this catastrophic way.

You should read up on some of the history of this conflict before you make more mistaken assessments

a 'right' ? no, you have not read my posts ..
 
see above .. you are totally wrong .. what you describe is simply ethnic cleansing .. do you really not understand the nazi project in europe?? it was the attempted annhilation of all jews for all of europe and beyond ..

there IS NO similar logic in israeli behaviour

they simply are violently creating a nation for them to command as so many other nations have done before
A distortion I think you'll find

The "Final Solution" came about after attempts at getting anyone else to take the Jewish population the Nazi were keen simply to get rid of, ie out of the lands they had invaded - once the war was actually on only then did they come up with the idea of killing all Jews - but then they also wanted all Gypies dead too but they dont have a country and neither do they own any banks or film studios so tend to be somewhat overlooked.
 
i see what you are saying but no .. what you say is too vague .. genocide in terms of the jews meant to wipe them off the globe on a reason they were evil .. what israel does is specific ethnic cleasning .. and remember there are many many arabs in israel as citizens

I haven't made up my mind on the question. It's not a subject I have a great deal of knowledge about. I'm going to be studying International Humanitarian Law over the next couple of months so I'll get back to you on this question when I'm a bit better informed. ;)
 
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